[Gach]

TC let me give you some encouragement when it comes to 60919 cam. Mr Pontiac ( Rich ) has 1967 GTO. Weights 3600 #’s
At Norwalk this year he ran back to back 11.60’s there’s a video of it I’ll see if I can find it, Now the funny part, he has a block of wood under gas pedal to keep him from going faster then 11.60’s. Has no roll bar in the car and doesn’t want to put one in. thats backs up what I’m saying. Here’s his combo, it’s a .060 400 block, with a 4.21 stroke crank. ( I sold him ) out of box E-Heads that were gone through by Gabby. The heads flow 290 cfm 72 cc. Performer dual plan intake. A Cliff R puke Jette. Just kidding Chiff. Has 4:10 gear. 3800 stall convertor. 1-3/4 headers. Timing all in by 1500 rpms and runs 36 degrees total timing. He shifts at 6200 rpms. I’m not beating my chest, I like helping guys, but I pick the cam and help him though the whole combo. I believe car would run 11.40’s with out block of wood under gas paddle. LOL

[Gach]

So we can analyze your combo versus his combo, whats The difference. Your 670 heads you say are ported, so I’m guessing 240 maybe 250 cfm, so he has lets say 40 more cfm. Your 3.70 gear his 4:10. Don’t know how much more CI he has over you, someone else can do the math, I believe his compression is around 9.50. Believe his mph is 116. You did damn good, finding one issue not getting enough air. The take away is 40 more cfm and a little more gear. Of cruse he’s probably 200 #’s lighter to. So proves one thing 60919 is damn good cam allot better then most think.

Here’s another funny part, I walk him through degreeing in the cam over the phone ( he had never done one ) in the middle of that someone else got involved so the cam ended up in at 104. A little history on the 60919 cam. If I remember correctly it’s actually 112 but has 4 degrees built in and they say it comes in at 108. When someone else got involved I’m guessing he got confused, so it’s actually 8 degrees advanced..LOL. So car has all kinds of bottom end and Sh..its the bed on top end. So he’s not going through the traps at desired RPMs. For when motor hp peaks. But still he’s happier the a big in Sh..it.

[ponchorob]

So gach what does that mean now? Was the cam now Advanced another 4 degrees or so installed that it works out 104 or was the cam installed do to dot and the degree wheel shows 104..when it should show 108 cam manefacture camcard

[Gach]

The cam was installed dot to dot and the degree wheel showed 104..when it should’ve showed 108 by cam manufacture cam card. It’s hard to teach someone who’s never done it before especially if others get involved, can get confusing with different interpretations. If one is using timing gear set that doesn’t allow for 2-4 degrees advance, then one most resort to off set cam key, which are difficult to get. Simple solution is to invest in a 9 way timing gear set.

[Steve C.]

Which Crower 60919 cam card !

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...14#post6229214




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[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Gach

The cam was installed dot to dot and the degree wheel showed 104..when it should’ve showed 108 by cam manufacture cam card. It’s hard to teach someone who’s never done it before especially if others get involved, can get confusing with different interpretations. If one is using timing gear set that doesn’t allow for 2-4 degrees advance, then one most resort to off set cam key, which are difficult to get. Simple solution is to invest in a 9 way timing gear set.

Exactly, It's such a hard subject to explain in a way everyone understands.

It's pretty common to line it up dot to dot and have the ICL off from what the cam card says it should be. Keyway on the cam could be off, key way on the cam sprocket, keyway on the crank sprocket, and even the keyway on the crank could be off. Or it could be a combination of more than one that adds up to the difference. It's an area where tolerances stack up and 9 times out of 10, they aren't perfect.

Bottom line, like you said, you really need a 9 keyway timing set from the get go so you can dial it in precisely.

[Gach]

Hey let’s make this more confusing..Steve c..LOL. The cam card you have in your hand, had him send me a picture which clearly states installed at 108.

[ponchorob]

So in his case he got 104 when installed dot to dot and if he wants to follow the camcard which says 108 he needs to retard 4 degrees on the crank...

[Gach]

Originally Posted by ponchorob

So in his case he got 104 when installed dot to dot and if he wants to follow the camcard which says 108 he needs to retard 4 degrees on the crank...

Yup

[Formulajones]

And I'm going to guess since dot to dot was already 4 degrees off the intended ICL, it's very possible retarding it 4 degrees at the crank likely won't be exact either.

You may find after checking it again it might overshoot or undershoot a pinch.

[Steve C.]

"had him send me a picture which clearly states installed at 108"

That info was unknown in this thread just restored to life. And information from Crower over the years has been all over the map. Including their cam specs on the 60919 cam.

If you read the thread I linked it had some info regarding that. No confusion intended.




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[Gach]

Years ago, I had a bad experience with a cam, from a Pontiac vender, it’s a bit confusing to try and explain, it was supposed to be installed at 108, no matter what I did, using off set cam keys which only came in 2-4 degrees off set. I couldn’t get it in at 108. car was a dog, I was told I had wrong convertor. Got so fed up I put the old cam back in. Later when cam checker became available I had the cam checked, it was ground on a 116.

So getting back to the vender, with what I had found, he says yeah we had a bunch of them like that, my reply so are you going to make good on this cam, well we don’t return money but I’ll give you a credit. Now every cam I buy gets put on cam checker.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

"had him send me a picture which clearly states installed at 108"

That info was unknown in this thread just restored to life. And information from Crower over the years has been all over the map. Including their cam specs on the 60919 cam.

If you read the thread I linked it had some info regarding that. No confusion intended.




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I know that’s why I said I had cam card in my hand.

[Will]

Your combo is very similar to the 440" engine I had in my Formula - ported iron heads, 4" stroke, 1-5/8" tri-Y headers, 2.5" exhaust, 800 cfm Q-jet. there were a couple key differences between our setups - I had a regular Performer intake and never got around to testing with different intakes. I also had a small solid roller Crane cam that on paper duplicated the specs of the RAIV - so that means in a running engine my cam would act even smaller than yours as I'd lose duration from the lash. I ran HS 1.7 ratio rockers and verified after lash I was seeing about .512" lift at the valve.

With that cam in that combo I saw my best times shifting 5200-5400 RPM. I had 3.23 rear gears and 27" tires and 60' times were typically around 1.7 and I would run about 12.7 @ 107-108 with a best ever 1.6 60', 12.66 @ 108.

So in other words, looks like you're running about as would be expected with that cam just based on my similar experience with a functionally smaller cam, more restrictive intake, and taller gears.

[ponchorob]

.....ill think Tc doing good has the potential to run as low to 11. 60 to 11.70 when lookin tryin.to science out...with the 3.73 gear ..dont know which converter is he running....dont know if changing to 1.75 headers help..to lower Et maybe the smaller header has mor average torque and helpful in his combo..

[ta man]

Times look really good for the combo. What torque convertor?

[scott70]

Years ago my engine builder put in a 60919 that I asked for. He told me they tried degreeing it in but kept coming up with funny numbers. They checked it and it was like 116LS. They called crower and they sent another 60919 and that was still like one degree over on LS but degreed in decent. Car pulled really good to 5500.

[ponjohn]

Do HFT specs compare the same to HYD Roller?

Meaning, do you have to add duration to the H. Roller?

[Steve C.]

Not a pat answer but some numbers to add interest....

Comp XE hydraulic flat tappet lobe 5203

Duration at .006- 280
Duration at .020- 258
Duration at .050- 230
Duration at .200- 140
Lobe lift- 0.3200

Static duration at the valve with a 1.5 rocker ratio:
.050 lift - 244
.200 lift - 179
.400 lift - 92


Comp XE hydraulic roller cam lobe 3315

Duration at .006 - 282
Duration at .020- 257
Duration at .050- 230
Duration at .200- 151
lobe lift- 0.3400

Static duration at the valve with a 1.5 rocker ratio:
.050 lift- 243
.200 lift- 185
.400 lift - 109


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[Steve C.]

Not my material, from the internet regarding HFT and Hyd roller....

Even if the numbers @ 0.050 were equal; the cams can never actually be the same. Roller lobes are designed to open the valves with much more 'area under the curve'. That means that as the valve approaches max lift, a roller tappet can hold it open longer than a flat tappet. A roller vs. flat tappet test could never be equal no matter how the cams were ground. If we were to cut a roller lobe that EXACTLY matches the profile of a flat-tappet lobe, or even if we put a roller tappet on a flat tappet cam, the test results would still show the roller ahead, albeit slightly, simply as a result of less friction. But, there'd never be a reason for that type of lobe, or test, because it'd not be taking advantage of everything a roller tappet has to offer. However, we've done a few tests that closely mimic this idea and found interesting results. Certain flat tappet cams might be capable of more low-end power due to their slightly more aggressive initial opening rates. But their advantage quickly goes away as frictional losses start to take over compared to roller tappets and the top-end power increases of the roller tappets far outweigh the marginal low-end advantage.

And another, in short.....

"Even with the same duration and lobe separation, a hydraulic roller will make more horsepower and torque across the entire rpm range."
Chris Mays, Comp Cams


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