[PontiacMatt72]

I was planning on purchasing a hydraulic roller to replace a radical “race” solid roller in my 535 and researched which lifters Pontiac guys like, only to read remarks from a bunch of disgruntled guys dissatisfied with the noise from their HR setups... not to mention several lifter failure stories.

So, would I be just as well off to stick with a solid roller? I’d at least not have to purchase new lifters...

**This is for a 535 e-head combo that is already set up for a solid roller (springs, lifters), but being transferred into a street car. (And thus “de-tuned” with lower compression and “less” cam)

[leeklm]

I was recently talking to a well respected pontiac builder that was suggesting the hybrid solid roller lifter on a HR cam to his clients- at least until there is another proven HR lifter available. I have been using the Crower hippo solid roller lifter with HR cam for 3 years now race and street with zero issues.

We recently installed a new set of Comp HR lifters on a 218/224 HR cam in a 389 build and all is smooth and quiet so far (will not mention the non related scuffed cylinder wall we are dealing with). It is around .500 total lift so nothing radical, which I assume puts a lot less stress on the valve train.

[Formulajones]

I haven't had issues with the hydraulic rollers so no concerns here.

Stick with a good quality lifter like Hy-lift Johnsons. I've also purchased lifters from Paul C. and Paul K. here on the forums and they have all worked fine for me.
The last set I got from Paul K. went into dad's 571 Pontiac are Comps "S" version (forget who makes them now) and they've been whisper quiet and functioning perfectly for over a year now with no lifter bore mod. They are sitting on a 261/265 @ .050 cam.

For extra precaution if you wish you can do the lifter bore mod but engines I've done here have been fine with and without that modification.

It's kind of an old discussion in my opinion that we've had numerous times over a long period. It's been shown with pics from others and myself that there are hydraulic roller lifters made for Pontiac with correct oil bands that work just fine. The Comp S I believe they are called that I got from Paul K. comes to mind, but the subject keeps coming up.

Internal clearances may be another factor, but again, stick with a good quality lifter, pay particular attention to preload, and you'll likely avoid that issue.

[Formulajones]

As far as solid roller concerns, longevity is really going to depend on spring pressures from what I've seen and experienced.

Too little pressure is as bad or worse than too much. And generally even what is considered the norm for a street driven engine on a decent solid roller (240 lbs. seat) usually ends up being too much in the long run if you drive the car and put any miles on it.

Many here have experimented and the one person that I know has tried this setup a lot with some failures mixed in is Steve C. He would be a great person to discuss this with. I think he is now on a solid roller with 220 lbs. springs.

Some go as low as 200 lbs. and even less if trying a hybrid setup. Only time will tell. You have to be willing to roll the dice.

I can tell you the 240 lbs springs, with a tight lash solid roller, and checked frequently, only went about 5,000 street miles before it ate an expensive Crower bushed solid roller with pin oiling. Got no explanation for the failure either, other than it's a fair amount of spring pressure to be expected to live on the street.

Compare all this to a typical hydraulic roller that uses about 140-150 lbs. seat pressure, with cushy hydraulics.

[slowbird]

So a heavy hyd roller requires 140-150lbs to control it and a light weight solid roller requires around 220lbs?

[tom s]

When I first ran solid rollers on a 400 lobe lift (Road Paver)Comp told me to run 200 on the seats and set them at 6 thou.They also told me the cam will loose about 8 degrees of duration along with some lift.A couple years ago I decided to take out the solids and go to the sissy lifters(as Joe Sherman called them)and was amazed how much the idles changed as it gain the duration back.I reduced the spring pressure too 150.I have never found it necessary to go back to the hybred.My 366 RA V engine made HP to just under 7000.Not sure where it would have ended as Joe shut it off early.FWIW,Tom

[TCSGTO]

When I did the hybrid deal the valve springs were set up for a HR cam with 140ish on the seats. They worked fine that way for a few years set at zero lash dead cold, that’s easier than messing around with a .003” feeler gage. As soon as the engine fires and gets a little heat in it there will be some lash clearance.

Running the Shaver made Comp HR lifters now with the correct oil band and they have been quiet and work fine at 3/4 turn preload up to around 6500 with 145/400# springs then the power shuts off.

If you plan on turning over 6000 regularly with a HR cam I’d probably run the solid lifters or Johnson short travel hydraulics on it especially if you have larger diameter or longer stem valves.

[Steve C.]

Mimics Formulajones comments regarding running solid roller lifters on the street....

Inadequate oiling, excessive spring pressures and the hammering effect associated with VALVE LASH play a significant part in the failure of the roller, needle bearings and axle. BUT very important, the lack of adequate valve spring pressure to control the valves is a potential KILLER.


.

[Steve C.]

"So a heavy hyd roller requires 140-150lbs to control it and a light weight solid roller requires around 220lbs?"

A note about my 220 lbs brought up by Larry. I recently changed cams in my current 505 in order to reduce the cams intensity profile, but still use the same duration at .050" tappet lift. In addition it would require less spring pressure. My car is street only and not raced anymore.

The intake lobe used is the same as the old UltraDyne 288R that Harold designed in 1980. I worked with Tim at Bullet Racing Cams and he said years ago they used to run it with a typical Small Block Chevy valvetrain mass with around 190 lbs seat pressure, in a Big Block Chevy at around 220 lbs. If memory serves me right also in a Pontiac at the 190 lbs. But keep in mind these numbers were from 30+ years ago.

In a related and recent thread HWYSTR455 stated this...

"All springs relax a certain amount after initial use or 'break in', so in general, many chose a slightly higher psi on the seat initially than recommended. The rationale is that after that initial break in, it will be at the targeted/desired seat psi."

I certainly agree, I've mentioned this before regarding a loss, personally I've seen as much as 14 pounds on the seat after a dyno session. And mentioned a build where the valve springs were set up for a hyd flat tappet application with an initial setting of 130 lbs on the seat, knowing they would lose pressure with run in. The actual pressure after a day on the dyno was 122 pounds.

Therefore I choose a spring rated 220 lbs at 1.900, knowing it will lose pressure after run in. That and my intake valves are a larger 2.150" diameter and with a longer stem length for that 1.900" installed height. I believe when in doubt, run slightly more seat pressure... not less.

The roller is under constant load with the hydraulic, and is constantly loading and unloading with the solid.


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[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by slowbird

So a heavy hyd roller requires 140-150lbs to control it and a light weight solid roller requires around 220lbs?

Yep. Lobe profiles are generally quite different between the two. Spring pressure is especially critical in these Pontiacs that have somewhat heavier valvetrains. Different deal when messing with a SBC but that's the gist of it.

[David Jones]

I’ve been running a hybrid in my 455 since 2013. I did it for noise reduction. 6-8 thousand miles, maybe more? It sees about 53-5400 rpm max. I set the lash at 005ish and last time I set it I’d run it 2500 miles with little to no change. http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=739095

[Cliff R]

My current 455 is also a "hybrid" set-up, Crower HIPPO lifters on a hydraulic roller camshaft. It's been in service since 2009. I started out with .008-.010" lash and have since settled on .005" for intake and exhaust. I suppose it would be fine at .000" lash and may try that next time the valve covers are off as it is a real PITA to get to a couple of mine under the power brake booster.

The hybrid set-up has worked well for me, aside from getting a bad set of roller rocker arms I've had zero issues with the cam/lifters and it has a lot of time on the engine at this point.......

[TCSGTO]

What springs are people running with their hybrid set up? A few years back solid roller pressures were recommended but it seems that view has changed recently now that it’s become more popular.

[Formulajones]

The hybrid setup doesn't need a ton of spring pressure since it's on a hydraulic roller lobe, which is likely why guys don't see failures going this direction.

From what I've seen, guys doing this don't even bother swapping the springs and are running the hydraulic roller spring pressures, so it's likely 150 lbs. on the seat or less.

But it was mentioned a while back that it was recommended the spring seat pressure be around 180 lbs. on a hybrid setup, which still isn't a ton. I think it was either Tom S. that had talked to his engine builder about that, or maybe Steve C. Different theories on that deal. You'll probably get different answers from different engine builders. Some well respected cam designers don't even recommend the hybrid deal so you won't get a spring recommendation from them.

[tom s]

It was Dean Harvey at Comp that sent me the springs and lifters when I did the hybrid setup when Comp first introduced their high lift hyd roller cams years ago.AGAIN!200 on the seats set at 6 thou.Tom

[Steve C.]

Regarding the hybrid set up. Years ago out of interest I contacted cam companies and independent cam design engineers on the subject. Especially related to adequate spring pressure involved. I've posted the information obtained on numerous occasions.

All those I communicated with will agree it NEEDS ADDITIONAL spring pressure over a hydraulic roller set up. The absolute 'minimum' I got from one Comp Cams tech rep was 150lbs seat pressure. That was after run in and the springs have lost some of their initial pressure, and with a smaller hyd roller lobe in use and not with a lot of RPM involved, other engineers from Comp have suggested higher seat pressure numbers. Much depends on what cubicle you get connected to.

Other independent cam designers have suggested much higher than 150 seat pressure to me. I've communicated with Steve Brule at Westech Performance on the subject, he's another advocate for higher seat pressures.

A few years ago I e-mailed Mike Jones and asked if 150 lbs seat pressure might be ok with using solid roller lifters with the Comp Magnum High Lift hydraulic roller lobes number 3122 & 3120 used for the Old Faithful cam. His response:
"I don't know enough about the ramps used on those Comp lobes to be able to tell you what seat pressure you need. If they're gentle, 150# might be fine, if they're aggressive, it could take 180# on the seat. Some hydraulic roller cams have an opening ramp that's too aggressive to run with a solid roller lifter. You'll need to check with Comp, so you don't run into any issues."


.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Regarding the hybrid set up. Years ago out of interest I contacted cam companies and independent cam design engineers on the subject. Especially related to adequate spring pressure involved. I've posted the information obtained on numerous occasions.

All those I communicated with will agree it NEEDS ADDITIONAL spring pressure over a hydraulic roller set up. The absolute 'minimum' I got from one Comp Cams tech rep was 150lbs seat pressure. That was after run in and the springs have lost some of their initial pressure, and with a smaller hyd roller lobe in use and not with a lot of RPM involved, other engineers from Comp have suggested higher seat pressure numbers. Much depends on what cubicle you get connected to.

Other independent cam designers have suggested much higher than 150 seat pressure to me. I've communicated with Steve Brule at Westech Performance on the subject, he's another advocate for higher seat pressures.

A few years ago I e-mailed Mike Jones and asked if 150 lbs seat pressure might be ok with using solid roller lifters with the Comp Magnum High Lift hydraulic roller lobes number 3122 & 3120 used for the Old Faithful cam. His response:
"I don't know enough about the ramps used on those Comp lobes to be able to tell you what seat pressure you need. If they're gentle, 150# might be fine, if they're aggressive, it could take 180# on the seat. Some hydraulic roller cams have an opening ramp that's too aggressive to run with a solid roller lifter. You'll need to check with Comp, so you don't run into any issues."


.

I am clearly with Mike. There is no one size fits all, as each lobe family may have a different ramp design.

Stan

[chuckies76ta]

I'm running the Crower solid roller lifters also with Dave's Road paver cam. We've had no issues so far. I have set lash at .004-.005 cold. My thinking is also, if the heavy H.R. lifter can be managed with 150 seat pressure, then the solid should be fine. Also, as TCSGTO post, the zero lash cold should be fine as the hot lash ends up around .004.
So, why the lash setting anyway? Is it that the valves could potently hang open a bit at zero lash? If so just set at .002 lash for comfort sake. It's gonna grow to .005 or .006 which would be perfect! no?
My springs are Crane 99893. I have them set at 150 seat pressure. Can't remember open pressure.

Thanks
Charles

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by chuckies76ta

My thinking is also, if the heavy H.R. lifter can be managed with 150 seat pressure, then the solid should be fine. Thanks
Charles

Keep in mind that is not always the case and can lead to a dangerous and expensive scenario. As already stated by quite a few well respected cam manufactures and engine builders in the industry there is no real set spring pressure for this hybrid deal, keeping in mind the heavier hydraulic roller is only a small part of the equation. It's more about the lobe profile.

[chuckies76ta]

Thanks Formulajones. Yes I understand that. Maybe shed some light on lash setting please.

Charles