[Gator67]

The Timken bearing is not absolutely smooth then it's turned. It's not grinding or catching, but can feel a very slight interference. Is this normal for these bearings? The BCA bearing, which again is open on both sides, is definitely smoother.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Gator67

The Timken bearing is not absolutely smooth then it's turned. It's not grinding or catching, but can feel a very slight interference. Is this normal for these bearings? The BCA bearing, which again is open on both sides, is definitely smoother.

Bearings begin degrading the minute they are placed into service. There is no getting around it. The smoother the bearing, the less friction, the less heat, and the longer the service life of the bearing will tend to be.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Whistling at idle in gear is where my pilot bearing became irritating enough to drop the trans.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Whistling at idle in gear is where my pilot bearing became irritating enough to drop the trans.

In my experience, when you can actually start to HEAR a bearing, you had better replace it before it fails on you. Those who 'put up' with the noise are courting disaster.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Funny....I've run wheel bearing grease in my '65 for the past 38 years without any service at all.....and about 50, 000 miles. I've also run wheel bearing grease in all my older cars that have----guess what?-----ball bearing wheel bearings. My Ford T, and my '61 Corvette. Ball bearings. Yet the wheel bearing grease works just fine. Funny how that is.....

not quite sure what your comments are referring to, of course you use wheel bearing grease in wheel bearings, tapered or ball bearing. what you quoted in bold was my reply to the comment about "hope you dont replace tapered wheel bearings using the same theory"... wheel bearings are designed for wheel bearing grease, pilot bearings are not, at least not the ones we are talking about here, & that was confirmed by timken. funny how when you post facts by the manufacturer the ones arguing thats not how to do it go silent.

i said that using wheel bearing or chassis grease in a pilot bearing wont cause it to self destruct, just stating they are not designed to use it for the reason timken & many others say. they come pre lubed with the correct type of grease, add whatever type & amount you want, but doubting what the engineers that design them say to use doesnt really make much sense IMO.

[Bluesugar]

just put a dab of grease(hi-temp)in the cranks recess and around the bearing and install.Done!! You do not want excess lube to be thrown on to the clutch.

[Gator67]

The interference is not constant, almost like there’s a slight dent in the race or cover. Just not sure if they’re all like that.

[AG]

They are definitely not all like that, there should be zero interference. I've used many of BCA/Timken roller bearings and none were like that new.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 78w72

not quite sure what your comments are referring to, of course you use wheel bearing grease in wheel bearings, tapered or ball bearing. what you quoted in bold was my reply to the comment about "hope you dont replace tapered wheel bearings using the same theory"... wheel bearings are designed for wheel bearing grease, pilot bearings are not, at least not the ones we are talking about here, & that was confirmed by timken. funny how when you post facts by the manufacturer the ones arguing thats not how to do it go silent.

i said that using wheel bearing or chassis grease in a pilot bearing wont cause it to self destruct, just stating they are not designed to use it for the reason timken & many others say. they come pre lubed with the correct type of grease, add whatever type & amount you want, but doubting what the engineers that design them say to use doesn't really make much sense IMO.

I'm not silent, not in the least. Ball bearing wheel bearings were used in pre 62 Pontiacs, and they used wheel bearing grease. Wheel bearing grease is the same stuff I've used for pilot bearings, and will continue to if I ever have the need to. I had all the same points Jeff made typed out, but he said what I had typed in a response. Not to be redundant I didn't respond, so you think I was silenced by the post you made...LOL, not quite.

I've worked in maintenance shop, we had many pieces of equipment that had ball bearings in it, guess what we used to lube it, wheel bearing grease.

The points you make have little merit, so I'm not going to argue back and forth about grease, to dignify your remarks. I know what works, I don't need your blessings, or the guy that answers the phone on the tech line at Timken.

Not everyone uses Timken bearings. I've taken other brands of pilot bearings out of the wrappers that were dry. So in that case, would you install them dry?

I know that what I've been doing for 50 + years are good practices, I know that wheel bearing grease works fine for pilot bearings in a Pontiac. Jeff told you the exact same thing that I did. He and I have close to 100 years spinning wrenches in the automotive field. Maybe you can BS a newbie about your claims, but we're far from newbies.

This isn't the first time you've tried to contradict advice I've given on this forum. Who goes to the trouble to call Timken, to deliver second hand information just to be contrary to a post I made?

If you disagree with my advice, just block me so you don't have to see it.

I try to be helpful to people on this board by posting tips and things that make working on these cars easier, gained from my father that worked at a Pontiac dealer in the 30s, until he retired in the late 70s. Plus my own experience that I've gained since I graduated from high school/trade school in 1970. I don't give out bad advice to members, and I made a living doing it for 50 years, plus built, and drove my own race cars as my hobby. I have a understanding of what works, and what doesn't.

FWIW, I've seen engineers make mistakes too, they're only human. I wouldn't put all my trust in choice of grease, just because someone has a piece of sheepskin on their wall. Common sense doesn't come with a degree.

[78w72]

do what you want there guy, im not trying to BS anyone, simply reiterating what the manufacturer of the bearing states, sorry if that offends you. go argue with them if dont believe what they say or feel the need to justify what you do, i will follow what the manufacturer says for things like this.

i try to help others out on this site too, ive known mechanics that have been doing this just as long as you, & ive been working on & building 2nd gen firebirds for 30+ years & dont need to or desire to compare myself to anyone... but as with everything you post, youre always right & everyone else is wrong.

have a nice day

[fiedlerh]

The 7109 is sort of obsolete in the industrial world. International Harvester engines used the 7109 pilot bearing as well.
If you are rebuilding your engine, you may want the hole in the crank machined deeper for the 2 mm wider 6202 bearing. Some have said it fits without further machining. You can get it with 2 metal shields or 2 rubber seals. I don't know which would work better.
If you seem to be eating pilot bearings (or tranny input bearings), check your bell housing alignment.
In my experience back in the day after about 40,000-50,000 miles of street driving, the clutch and the pilot bearing needed to be changed. More often if you drove like a maniac. It was a regular service item.

[adynes]

A wheel bearing and a pilot bearing are loaded completely differently. Very different operating conditions.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Gator67

The Timken bearing is not absolutely smooth then it's turned. It's not grinding or catching, but can feel a very slight interference. Is this normal for these bearings? The BCA bearing, which again is open on both sides, is definitely smoother.

My thought is that you have two samples total and are trying to make a general statement about the different designs: Open on one side vs Closed on both sides.

Out of the millions of bearings produced, there are going to be some bearings that are not "perfect".
If you feel any thing other than a smooth bearing I would return it to the store (if new or trash it) and get another bearing.

All of the people's posts in this thread are valid if it worked for them.
There will always be two sides to a given question.

The deal is to get past the "discussion" and move on.

I personally knew only one person in 40 years at Ford who really knew something about bearings, his name was Jeff C.
He would be the first to admit that he did not know everything about bearings.

If it feels "Funny", get another part.
The part is trying to tell you something, are you willing to listen? Arguing over two designs, and which one to use is better
is just a typing exercise. None of you are a Bearing Engineer and getting paid to do the job.

Tom V.

[chuckies76ta]

I'm not picking any sides here and have no opinion on this post but I'm learning as I go.

https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en...ink-again.html

https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Sirrotica]

I'm very interested in quality lubrication, and filtering of lubricants. As many know I advocate for by pass oil filtering a fair bit. After some investigation, I found some things out I was unaware of at the time I posted here.

Unbeknownst to me, Timken has entered the grease production market. Years ago they used a grease suitable for the job, sourced from a manufacturer of greases.

Now they have their own greases, and as with most things with the Timken label on it, there is a connection to quality. They're pretty proud of their greases too, retail price of EP synthetic greases is over $22 for one pound.

Every grease manufacturer will err on the side of caution, and say they don't recommend mixing their product with that of another manufacturer. The reason for this is the soap additives that are used to thicken oil into a grease aren't all compatible. To release themselves from any failure from that fact, they are going to state that they don't recommend mixing different brands together. A blanket statement for the industry. Some motor oil companies do the same thing with motor oils, and additive packages, or with differing base stocks

Chances are, if you use a quality grease, it should be compatible, but there is always a chance it isn't. So if you use Timken bearings and you feel that the grease they supply is inadequate in volume, you should either buy some of their synthetic grease, and add to it, or wash the bearing out and repack it with your grease of choice, just to be absolutely 100% safe.

In the past I have added to it, as has Jeff, without any ill effects. In the effort to give sound advice here, with these facts known, you'll have to make the decision about adding grease, and what type to add.

I personally have always felt they were stingy on what the put in the bearing, in an effort to extend the life I did add to it. That was likely before Timken stared producing their own greases.

In my case as well as Jeff's there was no ill effects. As I stated earlier, I have had new pilot bearings come with no grease in the bearing. Since I can't recall every pilot bearing I replaced over the years, and how many different brands I used, I used what grease I had on hand, and no ill effects.

So there you have it, that's as precise as I can make it, with the information I have. The installer will have to make a call.

If I didn't get it right the first time, I apologize to anyone it affected.

Part of being a good person, is the ability to admit you may have been in error.

[Gator67]

Out of caution I pulled the Timken bearing and replaced it with one I got from NAPA. The NAPA bearing was in an SKF box, and although it looks exactly the same as the Timken, it rolls very smooth. So I'll install this one. In case anyone's interested, the BCA bearing from BOP/Butler might be a Timken as well, but the outer race does not have a groove for the cover, and there might be more clearance in the bearings because it spins much more freely. Almost like a fidget spinner if you remember those from a few years back.

[grickjudge]

I agree with you 100% Brad. My 75 Transam has 72K miles on the pilot bearing I replaced and packed with HT bearing grease.
Still running ok.
My 70Judge has 45K since clutch and bearing were replaced the same way. No issues.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by grickjudge

I agree with you 100% Brad. My 75 Transam has 72K miles on the pilot bearing I replaced and packed with HT bearing grease.
Still running ok.
My 70Judge has 45K since clutch and bearing were replaced the same way. No issues.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Gary. The engine that was in the Judge is long gone that I installed the clutch in. That was a 65 389 that came with the car when I bought it, and the RA III spun a rod bearing, it got pulled out and the 389 went in.

I know Gary for some time, as I once owned a 70 Judge that he now owns and has restored. Gary has also worked as an engineer for a bearing company, so I'd value the information he has given on the subject. TY again Gary....

[GoreMaker]

Hah! Just got turned onto this thread, and what a ride

There's a lot of comparison with tapered wheel bearings. Doesn't apply here. Tapered bearings are pre-loaded and the tapered needles are constantly being pressed against the race, which in turn presses the race against its shaft or bore. If either race spins on its shaft or in its bore, then the bearing fails. The preload is enough to prevent the races from spinning and to allow the needles to rotate through the grease. In fact the grease serves to increase the preload by being forced between the tapered needles and races. There's usually a 0.0005" to 0.00015" clearance in a tapered bearing for this specific purpose. The grease is integral to that preload function (that's why we back off the castle nut before inserting the cotter pin on wheel hubs).

A pilot bearing has no such preload. The inner race rides on the transmission input shaft without any interference, it's a slip fit. So the idea is for the bearing to turn easily whenever any axial load is applied to prevent friction. If no axial load is present, there's no friction to deal with. If there's axial load, then the ball bearings need to allow the inner race to turn easily so it's not generating friction on the input shaft. That means the ball bearings require as little resistance as possible to turn, otherwise the input shaft will spin in the race and heat will result.

Typical wheel grease is too thick for this to happen. This is why they use a very specific, light grease that's pre-applied by the bearing manufacturer.

Does that mean the bearing will instantly fail if it's greased with wheel grease? Hells no. Most likely some grease made its way onto the input shaft anyways and any slip in there will be handled just fine for years. It's not a big deal. In that case the pilot bearing is acting like a bronze pilot bushing right up until there's enough axial load to overcome the resistance of the wheel grease in the bearing. That bearing is not highly loaded most of the time. All it does is limit axial deflection of the input shaft, it doesn't actually "bear" anything most of the time.

As for why the bearings are only sealed on one or no side, it's the same reason; to limit turning resistance. A seal on one side typically doesn't add much resistance because the inner race can still shift to the opposite side to spin freely. A seal on two sides guarantees extra resistance because the seals ride on both thrust sides of the inner bearing race. They add a seal to the side that's most likely to be exposed to crap and dust.

I'd use a bearing with a seal on a manual transmission, to prevent clutch dust from contaminating the grease prematurely. A bearing with no seals would be fine with an automatic transmission. A bronze bushing works fine, too, on this application. On my manual-transmission Audis, bronze bushings have been a failure of epic proportions, requiring complete transmission rebuilds. Automatics don't even use a pilot bearing at all. But for some reason, on these Muncies and Super T-10s, bronze bushings work just fine and last just as long as the clutch (which is really the only length of time these bearings/bushings need to last anyways).

[GoreMaker]

final thought: the best of both worlds would be to NOT grease the bearing, but lightly grease the input shaft before installing the transmission. That way there's lube between the input shaft and inner race, but the bearing will have no extra resistance to turning when the axial load gets high enough. Eventually the grease on the input shaft will go away and everything will still work as intended, but hopefully the input shaft and the inner bearing race will have worn into each other well enough that it'll only take the slightest tease from one to spin the other, like an old married couple that piss each other off on a whim after 50 years of putting up with each other.