[md1twal3]

When one uses an SR block on their restoration, is there any "standard" for what date code is appropriate/acceptable, as judged in a show?

In other words, does it have to fall within a certain range after the cars build date to be considered "correct"? (of course the real correct is original engine, but I am looking for 2nd most correct)

[racerboy]

md,
I was curious about this myself. Could you use an SR block that pre-dates your vehicle? Obvioulsy, you could use a later one, but I always wondered about an earlier one. I don't know if the dealers had these "in stock" just waiting for a warranty call.

Frank

[Bet Winner]

I doubt they were sitting at the dealerships. I think one cast very long before the car was assembled would look odd. A casting around the build date or after would look better in my opinion.

[jimmy daniel]

Is it acceptable for 4/10/69 car to have a 1/17/69 motor or is that considered too far apart?

[dr-doug]

Does the car go forward when you put it in first....ofcourse it's acceptable, but.....if you had two cars sitting side by side and one had a SR block that was cast after the production of its host while the other vise-a-versa, and the judge at the car show who has a degree in B.S., I mean is full of BS decides his vote for the best car of the two goes to...who cares ..The only time your going to need to know if the engine in your "real" judge is acceptable is when your wife wants a divorce and you want to keep the car, and she wants compensation.....goooood luck.....or you try to sell it, and then it is up to the rest of the world.
I probably just piZZZ--d off several people, but I don't care. I sent a letter to the president of the GTOAA, asked him if there was a definative set of judging rules for GTO's, a set of "cast in stone" dates that were acceptable for engines, and what should be painted what, rule's to go by when restoring a GTO similar to what there is available for '57 chevy's.(Zazarines book's are hit or miss at best)...he, in a round-about-way, said_ NO_.
What we have at our finger tips here in 2006 is the ability to decern a lemans from a judge, a tempest from a GTO, and the options that were placed on a car when it was produced...but nothing else...That has to be the standard that is accepted, nothing else exists, it is just speculation after that(MUN'S). Anyone can stamp a WS on a block and a few digits that correspond to the VIN, some see this as part of the Restoration process. Is it right, I don't know. The key item I see here is, was the car originally built as it appears today? If so, it has a value,(if you wish to sell) and a point total(car show), but these things are purely subjective.
On a lighter note, I've worked as much as 2000 hours on a car, even fabricating items from scratch to replace the irreplaceable, and had a guy come up and start telling me what's wrong with the car, you know the type, the guy who has a manicure and one of those French hats, reads alot of books, but can't gap his own spark plugs SCREW THOSE GUYS....Considering this group deals with body styles that could have had 3 or 4 different names screwed to the same exact sheetmetal, if we have the original intended plaque still on our cars:Tempest,Lemans,GTO, Judge. we are doing our hobby a service, just as a historian does history justice.....and we can do burnouts for as long as we keep our feet to the metal, what a bonus. Enjoy your cars, have a blast driving them, or restoring them, what ever is your bag. Don't let "how much it's worth", or what some screwball judge thinks, determine how much you enjoy it.
Just stepped off my soapbox, and fell on my azz...

I'm writing a short story in another window basically about this same topic, hope I can finish it tomorrow...I 'll bet you 20 or so folks can't wait, HA!.. DW

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by jimmy daniel

Is it acceptable for 4/10/69 car to have a 1/17/69 motor or is that considered too far apart?

If a car was built the second week of April, and its engine block was cast January 17, that appears pretty reasonable for an original engine. My car was built the third week of January 1969 and the intake, heads and block were cast the last of October 1968. (The build date for the car is a specific week on the data plate so I'm not sure how you came up with an exact date of 4/10/69.)

If you are talking about a service replacement block, I would be less worried about the dating. If you have a 400 service replacement or an over the counter block, I would probably be happy with it.

I don't think dr-doug likes the "correctness game." , but if you like car shows, you usually like making things as correct as possible.

[md1twal3]

Dr-Doug does make some excellent points. I was never a numbers guy either, and I am restoring my Judge for my enjoyment, BUT I'd be kidding myself if I wasn't thinking of the value once restored to the best it can be. I want them both....a nice car that I can be proud of and one that is as close to it was originally, so it is valuable....that said, I asked the initial question to find out what "as close to original" is, in regard to SR blocks and dates.

[dr-doug]

Here are a few thoughts about original to the car engines, and the value they bestow on them...I'll give you a couple of things to think about. In our collection we have some rare cars, they too have a following similar to GTO's. Two of the oldest in the collection are a pair of '32 Ford Roadsters. These cars are original steel bodied Ford's. They are both restored to there original appearance(actually much nicer), however engines are another thing. These cars could have been purchased with 4 cyl.'s or the "new" flathead V8's. These cars are both restored as V8's, but only one even has a '32 block in it. This is perfectly acceptable at all judged shows, the cars are 73 years old, and they look and run like they are brand new. Nationally advertised these cars would bring 100K. It's the beauty of the car, and the performance of the engine that drives that market, not the numbers stamped or cast on the block somewhere. I'll speculate that every year more blocks for these cars are lost due to them freezing while stored, or butchered by a machine shop, then new suitable replacements are being found(a dwendeling supply).
Next we have 2 '57 Chevy convertibles with 283's (red and black). These cars also have a following similar to GTO's. When you step forward 25 years(from 32)new things become potentially important. "Numbers"...Are the casting numbers something that could have been available, and do they fall into the correct range for the production of the car? If those things are true, then what sets these cars apart are the options that are installed, and the quality of the restoration.
One other example, then I'll go get busy on my judge. We have a Hebmuller, a type of volkswagen convertible. They made @ 600 over a 3 year period '49-'51. Similar numbers to the Judge convertibles, and in reality, probably less than 50 still exist. The fact this car has a 25hp engine in it, rather than a 36hp or something even newer is all that is important. It's been in numerous magazines, and to a ton of car shows(with my father), and people just look and drool, (volks folks are a little different) They appreciate it for what it is, a rare piece of automotive history, that has been painstakingly restored to the best of the owners ability.
Many of us are going through the process of restoring our Judges,our cars either have or don't have there original engine, we can't change that. In my opinion if you are going to show your car at a national show and wish to be judged, your either a masocist, or a millionare. You love the pain of someone pointing out the flaws, or you have paid sooooo much to someone to restore your car that it better damn welll be right. Still trying to focus.....If you wish to truely restore your car as it rolled off the assembly line, and you wish to have it judged, and you don't have the original block....here is what I think you should do(not that I have, I'm not a car show guy, I restore)....Find a block that is rebuildable that is cast @ 1 month prior to your cars build date. Remember you have to be thinking like a car show judge now: have the machine shop mill the front of the block, "WAH LAH"no numbers to prove the block is not original to your car. Now there is a guy on ebay.....you guys thought I was going somewhere else.....That sells the original stickers that our cars had on them from the factory, order a full set and stick them all over the car where they belong including the big red and white WS etc. that is correctly placed right where the MUN and the 2 letter code is supposed to be stamped. problem solved. What about the VIN? Have the block well painted in the area of "VIN" location, a car show judge better not take his pocket knife to your 100K car, if he does, send me his name(I'm 6'3" 275).
Everything I mentioned in the previous paragraph is 100% legal. I'm a dentist not a lawyer though. If you still are not satisfied with the no VIN look, I think you'll have to cross over to the dark side, become a re-stamper. That might have legal implications, I would'nt film yourself doing it if I were you.
Similar situation, then I'll end the sermon. Two weeks ago when dismantling the car I always wanted, I discovered my'65 convertible GTO had the VIN held on to the door jamb by two normal rivets, I was pissed, I couldn't get the body off the frame fast enough....blasted the frame and there it was, in duplicate I might add, the matching VIN...what a relief....but...to be correct I have to buy a pair of star rivets and reinstall the VIN...Should I do it, will my name be placed on a big list of "rivet buyers", potential felon's. What's the groups thought on that one?

[Bet Winner]

Ok, I actually like finding a correctly dated part. This is part of my hobby and part of the restoration as I define it. I'm a CPA, and this being anal comes naturally. (I may buy a 68 Bird with an incorrect carb--I'll enjoy the hunt I think.)

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Doug, maybe you better go pay cash in person for the rivets if you don't want to have to worry about being on the national registry. If you get popped - we'll vouche for you.




Be easier and cheaper to just fill in the existing stampings you don't want (like the block code and vin) with some "all-metal" type filler and use auxillary stampings in the directly approximate vicinity. Those decals are not very cool. And I wouldn't trust a guy hiding behind them. They're "supposed" to go a little lower than the stamping area - but claiming lack of knowledge is always getting more and more popular.

IF you have a block shaved - you will need to have your front cam retainer plate shimmed the same amount - and your intake shaved the same amount where it meets the timing cover - and the intake grommet hole machined that much deeper probably, too. Better have your machinist keep up with what he's doing. Might take .060 or more to clean it up.

[md1twal3]

I don't plan to go through a bunch of work to machine off and/or restamp anything. I have a YZ block, a WT block (both with date codes that are within 2 days of my heads), a block with no stamping (within 25 days of heads, and 2 days of intake) and a chance to get an SR block, but it is 72 or 73. My car is a 4 spd car, so a WS is what I really need.

My point is that I have plenty of options, just trying to choose "the best" as seen by those that these things matter to....