[scott mills]

I just put the Currie Currectrac upper and lower control arms in my car a few weeks ago. They are very nice units.

[68Prix]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

For sure I'd hate to see people pulling numbers matching engines out of GTOs, TAs or SD Catalinas in favor of an LSx, but there are plenty of "ordinary" Tempests, Birds, and so forth that can be so modified. IMHO

I could not agree more. I love concours cars, but they are getting rare to see out.
I never cared for these type of swaps before, but a lot has changed in the last 10 years. This is going to be one fun car, get mileage, looks and just fun. The best part is this car is going to see miles and miles. I can't wait to see it done. About the only thing I would do different, mine would be a 6 speed. Now, I better not get dreaming to much, I got enough projects, . Pat

[Karch]

Ever see what happens to these motors when you add a little cam? LT headers help as well.

Then, add a blower or twin turbos and watch out.

The aluminum blocks are really quite strong for being out of aluminum. And, you can get an iron 6.0L block quite cheap if you feel the need under boost.

[b-man]

.....shopping today, I ordered up a new wiring harness and controller for the Tempest project.

I send an email last night to Speartech http://speartech.com/ detailing my needs. However I decided to call them today before I had a chance to read their very quick and detailed email response to discuss my needs and place my order.

Contents of the email response I received from John at Speartech:

Here's an overview of what we offer:

This package was specifically developed for the new 2006-2008 LS2, LS3, LS7 crate engines with the 58X crankshaft sensor. The complete LSx/4L70E custom stand alone wiring harness and computer package sells for $1695.00.

The package includes the following:

A new custom length, stand-alone LSx/4L70E wiring harness. The harness includes a check engine light, diagnostic connector, fuel pump relay, fuse block, and labeled wires for easy hookup to the battery, ignition switch, and fuel pump. Wires are also included for tach, speed, A/C, cooling fan relays, and cruise control functions where applicable. These custom stand alone harnesses are built for full function, closed loop control, and designed for non-emissions use (no post-cat O2's, purge canister, or fuel tank evap interface). Our harnesses can be built to your desired length specifications.

The package comes with the GM LSx ECM (engine control module) and TCM (transmission control module) fully programmed for your application including: VATS (vehicle anti-theft system) removal, emissions equipment removal (whatever you don’t need or are not using on your swap such as: catalytic converters, rear O2 sensors, fuel tank pressure, EVAP), torque management removal, gear ratio and tire size, etc.

The reprogramming lets your new engine run properly without the “check engine” light being on unless there is a problem with the engine that needs to be addressed.

Since the LSx is an Electronic Throttle Control (ETC) engine, the electronic pedal is also included in the package.

As with all Speartech packages our systems can be serviced with any late model diagnostic equipment designed for GM vehicles.

Options available:

Extra length (beyond 4’): $50.00

Emissions package (wiring for rear O2 sensors and charcoal canister control): $50.00

Sensor package (includes correct front O2 sensors and MAF sensor for one-stop shopping): $350.00

The harness and controller will add another $1,695 to the cost of the swap, plus an as yet undetermined shipping cost.

Does anyone here have an opinion or input on what is the best Mass Air Flow sensor for my application and how much they go for? I'm considering buying the O2 sensors and MAF sensor I need from Speartech.

Today's swap-related expenditure - $1,695

New swap-related total - $15,278

I have to gather up as many pieces to the puzzle as I can as quickly as possible. There's a lot of stuff to arrange in the engine compartment and under the dash, you pretty much need everything all at once in order to do it right.

[fbrown]

I received my Speartech package a couple of days ago. The information on my package indicates that it is setup for an LS2 MAF. The Corvette MAF appears to be a unit that is installed in the air intake ducting and would not work well in an A-body install. A new DELPHI Part # AF10043 (2006 GTO) part is available from rockauto for $98. For o2 sensors, DELPHI Part # ES20007 is available for $41 each. I think Speartech quoted $450 for their o2/MAF package which is probably for AC/Delco branded parts. Chances are the Delphi parts are the same since Delphi makes the parts for GM. BTW it took Speartech about 6 weeks to ship my order. My project is a 68 Lemans being converted to a GTO with LS3/4L70E. I should probably start a thread for my project so as not to hi-jack your thread. It would appear that both of us are facing the same problems at about the same time.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by fbrown

I received my Speartech package a couple of days ago. The information on my package indicates that it is setup for an LS2 MAF. The Corvette MAF appears to be a unit that is installed in the air intake ducting and would not work well in an A-body install. A new DELPHI Part # AF10043 (2006 GTO) part is available from rockauto for $98. For o2 sensors, DELPHI Part # ES20007 is available for $41 each. I think Speartech quoted $450 for their o2/MAF package which is probably for AC/Delco branded parts. Chances are the Delphi parts are the same since Delphi makes the parts for GM. BTW it took Speartech about 6 weeks to ship my order. My project is a 68 Lemans being converted to a GTO with LS3/4L70E. I should probably start a thread for my project so as not to hi-jack your thread. It would appear that both of us are facing the same problems at about the same time.

Thank you for your very valuable input here, in no way would I consider calling any of this very helpful info that's related to both of our projects a thread hijack.

Please do start a thread on your '68 GTO project. I'm sure there would be a lot PY members who would be interested in your later generation A-body project with the LS3/4L70E drivetrain going in.

I was told my harness package should be ready in about 3-1/2 weeks due to the holidays, we'll see.

So the LS2 GTO MAF is compatible with the LS3 engine? Interesting, I suppose the fact that the LS3 is a drive-by-wire engine doesn't have any impact on the MAF from the LS2 being useable.

Thanks again for your most helpful input. I'll look into the DELPHI # AF10043 MAF sensor and #ES20007 O2 sensor pieces from Rock Auto, this will really help save me a nice chunk of change.

EDIT: After doing some checking on the Rock Auto site I saw the # ES20007 O2 sensor is a 2004 Corvette part, whereas the # ES20009 O2 sensor ($53.79 each) is for the 2005-2008 Corvette.

Wouldn't the # ES20009 be the correct one since it matches the year of the engine I'm using? Or could it be the # ES20007 is functionally the same but fits into a different size (smaller?) O2 sensor bung that's a better fit where I will need to install it, directly after the header collectors welded into the exhaust pipes?

I can also see from looking through the Rock Auto catalog that the # AF10043 MAF sensor is used on quite a large number of different GM cars:

BUICK (2004 - 2007)
CADILLAC (2000 - 2006)
CHEVROLET (1999 - 2008)
GMC (1999 - 2008)
HUMMER (2003 - 2008)
ISUZU (2003 - 2006)
OLDSMOBILE (2001 - 2003)
PONTIAC (2005 - 2006)
SAAB (2005 - 2008)

[fbrown]

I'm new to the LSx series of engines and their computers, but for LT1's the only change to use a different MAF was to use the correct MAF table. I was using a f-body LS1 MAF on my 94 Fleetwood with LT1 engine. So it would appear that the only change to use a LS2 MAF with an LS3 engine would be a table change. Anyway that is one of the reasons I went with Speartech, Speartech can give a working configuration for the stock LS3 engine that should run very well the first time the engine is cranked. Of course a dyno tune would probably be in my future but I could put this off while dealing with the many other problems of the restoration.

[andrewb70]

The LS3 uses the LS7 MAF. It is designed to be inserted into a 4" tube. If Speartech is going to flash your ECU with a stock LS3 tune, then I see no reason why you would use anything other than an LS7 MAF.



Andrew

[b-man]

Originally Posted by andrewb70

The LS3 uses the LS7 MAF. It is designed to be inserted into a 4" tube. If Speartech is going to flash your ECU with a stock LS3 tune, then I see no reason why you would use anything other than an LS7 MAF.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew.

Which O2 sensors and bungs did you end up using? Since you're using the same headers I'm using can you tell me about how close to the collector flange your O2 sensor bungs were installed and at what orientation/angle?

Thanks again, Bart

[andrewb70]

Originally Posted by b-man

Thanks Andrew.

Which O2 sensors and bungs did you end up using? Since you're using the same headers I'm using can you tell me about how close to the collector flange your O2 sensor bungs were installed and at what orientation/angle?

Thanks again, Bart

My GMPP harness kit came with the O2 sensors. I am really not sure which ones they are, but I suspect they are from the new Corvette, since I have the LS7 harness kit. I have the bungs welded about 4 inches behind the header collectors, with the wires going between the transmission and the exhaust pipes. The tips of the O2 sensors point down slightly to keep condensation from collecting in the sensor. Like this:

O/----[transmission]----\O

Does that make sense?

Andrew

[b-man]

Yes, a pretty clear explanation.

Thanks again for your help Andrew.

Bart

[andrewb70]

Originally Posted by b-man

Yes, a pretty clear explanation.

Thanks again for your help Andrew.

Bart

Glad to help.

Andrew

[b-man]

.....for those of you who may be contemplating a swap from stock rear drum brakes to Corvette disc brakes.

The thickness of the Z51 13" Corvette rotors where they attach to the axle flange is .275", the GM 9-1/2" brake drums are only .095" thick.

These rear disc brakes will move the rear wheels out by .180", nearly 3/16". Don't forget to use slightly longer lug studs if needed.

Those of you who are tucking super-wide wheels and tires on the back of your car should know this, sometimes there's very little room to spare. In my case the .180" added thickness is a plus, I was expecting about .125" which would have been fine.

I needed a little bit less wheel backspace and this will put my 6.57" backspace 18X9" wheels within about .020" of their ideal location, it's really hard to get it to work out much closer than this.

[Karch]

Bart, I was told by a tuner that also sells GM engine/transmission modules that you can use the factory modules for your application.

He sells the Trailblazer pair for under $180, though I am not sure about the LS3 module, if it takes a different one or not. It probably can use the same module, just a different tune.

I can hook you up if interested.

[b-man]

.....today fitting the wheel adapters and front wheels to the Tempest and making sure they had clearance.

Also tried out the spare wheel & 245/45-18 tire on the front, it will have to take the place of one of the 245/40-18s if I ever suffer a flat front tire.

I bought this particular size for the spare because it's spec'd at 26.7" tall, very close to the same height as the 26.6" tall 275/40-18 rear tires, but narrow enough that I'll still be able to use it up front with little to no interference with the front wheelwells. Actual measuring showed the 275/40s and the 245/45s to be exactly the same height, right about 26.75" unloaded.

The reason I wanted the spare tire to be the same height as the rear tires is to avoid damaging the posi unit in the rear end. Running tires of differing diameters on the rear end will burn up most limited-slip rear ends if you have to drive any real distance with it that way.

Wheel adapter mounted, I had them made with a wheel-centric ring to locate the wheel as precisely as possible.



Point of slight interference, at the rear bottom corner of the front fender. On right turns, the right fender hits the tire here. Same deal on the other side when turning left. Pictures show the 245/40s, additional clearance will be needed for the spare 245/45 tire.





After a few whacks with a 2-pound hammer there's now enough room for the spare tire to have the clearance it needs to make turns. Even though the Tempest isn't sitting anywhere near its normal ride height right now this was a known point of interference with the old 17" wheel/tire combo. It needed some more attention due to the added diameter of the new 245/40-18s over the old 235/45-17s, not to mention the new taller spare.



The Tempest sits like a 4-wheel drive with no engine, trans or interior installed. I'll have to wait until the car goes together completely before I can figure out how much I'll need to trim the front coils.





Not much else going on right now until the trans and converter arrive in a couple of weeks, the new rear end and rear suspension parts have yet to arrive as well.

I still have to gather up all of the Vintage Air parts I need. There's a lot of things yet to do here in 2009 to get this car running.

Happy New Year all!

[455HOGT37]

I'm not a big fan of the negative offset wheel "look", but your combination seems to work (not that my opinion means anything). Looking forward to seeing it "in the weeds".

On another note, I just retuned from a two week road trip where the LS3 dragged us more than 2500 miles all over the southwest. Tank - to - tank mileage was mostly around 30 MPG, with a best (Tucson to El Paso) of 32.5 @ 79 MPH average. Not too bad...

[jimmy-ny]

Bart,

Perhaps I missed this. But are you going to install the gauge cluster from an LSx donor car into the tempest dash? Just curious how that works. Coming from having NO CLUE here and love this thread. Not sure what Andrew did either; I'm sure he has the answer already.

I was out in the garage a few days ago and just measuring "stuff" from my '00 Z-28 to my Custom S. Your information here is incredibly valuable. I know there's a strong bias here regarding motors, but this swap is exactly what I'd like to do with mine. Just measuring everything on the Z-28 has me very interested on a donor car swap attempt since even down to the weight the cars are "close" 3400(Custom S) vs 3308 ('00 Z-28) lbs.

Can't wait to see more!

[b-man]

Originally Posted by jimmy-ny

Bart,

Perhaps I missed this. But are you going to install the gauge cluster from an LSx donor car into the tempest dash? Just curious how that works. Coming from having NO CLUE here and love this thread. Not sure what Andrew did either; I'm sure he has the answer already.

I was out in the garage a few days ago and just measuring "stuff" from my '00 Z-28 to my Custom S. Your information here is incredibly valuable. I know there's a strong bias here regarding motors, but this swap is exactly what I'd like to do with mine. Just measuring everything on the Z-28 has me very interested on a donor car swap attempt since even down to the weight the cars are "close" 3400(Custom S) vs 3308 ('00 Z-28) lbs.

Can't wait to see more!

Jimmy,

The gauges are one thing I haven't thought much about to be quite honest. I'll admit that I really don't know much about modern automotive electronics and how much I'll need to make everything come together. Perhaps Andrew or someone else with experience here can offer some information or insight on this.

I'd prefer to keep my dash as stock-looking as possible, and just hang whatever I need to add under the dash. Not sure if that's going to be possible yet, I'm pretty much just learning as I go here like many of the readers of this thread.

I want the modern drivetrain and electronic overdrive automatic trans along with A/C and cruise control, but I don't want to 'modernize' the look of the dash or controls any more than necessary.

I do have a new Autometer mechanical trans temp gauge I'm going to install, and the car already has a mechanical water temp and oil pressure gauge under the dash. I'll add a new Autometer tach as well to the steering column. But again, I'm not sure what other electronic gauging if any will required to allow everything to work together.

I guess I'll be better able to figure out what I need as soon as my wiring harness and controllers arrive from Speartech. Probably a quick call to John at Speartech will answer a lot of my questions pretty quickly, I'll do that after my controller/harness package arrives in a couple of weeks.

Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you're enjoying the thread.

Bart

[fbrown]

I don't know if this would work in the 64 but this is a cruise control stalk that I found for use in my 68. It is available for $30 from http://store.fastcommerce.com/bought4less/home.html



I emailed Speartech about the MAF and O2 sensors and this was their reply.

"The 06 GTO MAF will work great. You will need the Corvette O2 sensors though. Any year should be fine (05-08)."

[b-man]

fbrown,

Thanks again for sharing and helping me to figure out what I need. Not quite sure what to do yet for my cruise control switching, I really appreciate the picture and info you posted here.

I contacted John at Speartech and asked if the LS7 MAF would be compatible with the harness and controller he's making up for me. John related that the harness could be setup for the LS3/LS7 MAF but using one in a non-factory intake duct would probably require some custom tuning, so I decided to go with the LS2 MAF that John recommends for ease of tuning.

Now, here are a few pics of the 4L70E trans taken by Vince at Finish Line Transmissions http://www.finishlinetrans.com/transmissions/index.htm just before it was strapped down in the shipping crate. Vince is clearly proud of his work, this beauty is on its way here right now via truck freight:







Shiftworks tailhousing that converts 1998 and up 4L60E/4L65E/4L70E transmissions to a factory mechanical speedometer and still retains a functional VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor). The guys at Finish Line commented on it, saying it was a very nice piece.





I can hardly wait to get my hands on it.

Another big piece of the puzzle taken care of.