[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I was questioning why you would be spending a lot of the man's money for a one-off connection rod length ... 6.5" (with the 1.53" piston compression height), Stan, when the rod is not available without $$$$ vs buying a off the shelf 6.535" rod (+.400" long) normal BB Chebby rod made by everyone and then adjust the piston compression height.

You can throw out numbers all day long to get some BS number but at the end of the day Stan the customer wants a rod he can buy easily and get replacements easily.
So NOT 'bad reading comprehension'. Not 'bad Math skills'. Just 'Tom being Tom', who knows a bit more about reality vs you.

Merry Christmas Stan to you and your family.

Tom V.

Tom,
A short deck 303ci Pontiac with off the shelve parts.

Merry Christmas and a a Safe, Happy and Healthy New Year to you and your family.

Stan

[ho428]

I'm still wondering how they built a 303 out of a 326 block for the rebuilt Gray Ghost.

What I ran into last year researching this was no aftermarket block had a bore small enough for a 303. I talked with someone here about sleeving an IA block, but boring out a brand new block and adding 8 sleeves just to get the bore size down? Plus the extra weight of the std deck block?

If a custom crank is needed might was well optimize it, which IMO would be a 4 x 3 B&S in a short deck block. Off the shelf BBC rods, pistons would be custom anyway but would use a 4" Chevy ring pack.

[Tom Vaught]

I actually worked on the Grey Ghost (see picture attached) when Mr Sporel was racing it.

The car at the time has the experimental short deck block with the 2.84 stroke crank, the cheater dry sump provision cast in the block to work with the Auto Trans oil pump gear set, and the other parts to the system. It was not based on a production 326 engine at that time. When did Sporel convert to a 326 cid based engine?

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Tom,
A short deck 303ci Pontiac with off the shelve parts.

Merry Christmas and a a Safe, Happy and Healthy New Year to you and your family.

Stan

I wish I had bought 10 of the raw forging Moldex 303 cranks when I had the chance.
Could not afford the price but did save about 12 of the 366 forgings.

The 303 cranks went back into the steel crucible at the steel plant.

Tom V.

[ho428]

I remember the original, even have an old magazine article on it somewhere.

I recently read a just published article about the Monterey Classic event where the Gray Ghost made a debut.
Who knows, might just be another case of writer ignorance about his subject?

I tried to scan it to post but the PDF file is too big. PM me your email Tom and I'll send it to you.

[ho428]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

When did Sporel convert to a 326 cid based engine?

Tom V.

Article said John Hildebrand did the rebuild on it, article also says 326 based 303 engine.
I've got a feeling the writer was maybe thinking that since that's how they did the Chevy, putting a 283 crank in a 327 block to get a 302.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ho428

I'm still wondering how they built a 303 out of a 326 block for the rebuilt Gray Ghost.

What I ran into last year researching this was no aftermarket block had a bore small enough for a 303. I talked with someone here about sleeving an IA block, but boring out a brand new block and adding 8 sleeves just to get the bore size down? Plus the extra weight of the std deck block?

If a custom crank is needed might was well optimize it, which IMO would be a 4 x 3 B&S in a short deck block. Off the shelf BBC rods, pistons would be custom anyway but would use a 4" Chevy ring pack.

As posted earlier. 326 base 303 stock bore

Bore = 3.718"
Stroke = 3.488"

============

0.018" Over bore
Bore = 3.736 -- 305 SBC
Stroke = 3.455"

0.032" Over Bore
Bore = 3.75 -- 292 Ford Y Block
Stroke = 3.429"

Above bore sizes were not pick for pistons which can be custom made to almost any size but for easy of getting piston rings.

Not sure why you and Tom, in a custom low deck want to use a BBC based rod? Also as stated earlier, in a low deck engine I said use a 6.5" rod - which would be .8" long SBC based.

Stan

[ho428]

I suppose if you're getting a custom crank made then about any rod could be used, even Ford.
I was basing it on the common BBC 2.20 journal put onto Pontiac cranks.
Eagle BBC's come in 6.135, 6.385, 6.535 and 6.635, 6.66, 6.7, 6.8 and 7.1
No idea how common they all are, but Eagle list them all. If available you could work into a good piston CH with a short deck, tall deck it's pretty much 7.1 and a big CH

[Stan Weiss]

If you want to run like the SBC and SBF you need to build it like one. Get the reciprocating and rotational masses down so it will rev quicker and be easier on parts at higher RPM.

Stan

[tom s]

OK,off the wall engine!63 326 block 70 over,316 crank 3.25 stroke with bearing spacers 302.96.ALL pontiac.BUT you still have the std deck issue with the long ass rods.Tom

[Stan Weiss]

Tom,
If one could find a 316 I might take this a different way. If the crank rod journals could be offset ground to destroke the crank to 3.11" with the 3.9375" bore = 302.9572 ci. We will have to fight the long rod no matter what so a little more bore to help with the needed valve size.

Stan

[ho428]

I've all but given up on building a competitive Pontiac 303, if some other guys start showing up with them I'll take another look but a couple magazine articles aren't enough to convince me they can run with the crowd I race with.
Show me some lap times and finishes around Road Atlanta, VIR or Sebring, I can compare with that.

If the block I'm looking at Saturday checks out I'll just build a 440 and try to max it out. I plan to run the same classes in '17 as '16, it's beyond I'm looking for something different if class car counts don't grow.

[tom s]

I would not want to go more than 70 over in case you needed another clean up.Tom

[ho428]

Originally Posted by tom s

I would not want to go more than 70 over in case you needed another clean up.Tom

It's a rusty SOB so I'll have to see where it is now. Really getting hard to find much in this area.
I've got the new KRE 305 heads that Dave did for me, a scat 4", Northwind and 950 Pro systems carb.

I'd like to somehow pull 650+ hp out of this 440. The heads will do over 7000 and .620 lift. If I recall on the chart they flowed around 305 at .600
The plan is to add splayed caps, and modify the oiling system some more. This will be my, "time to use the redline and flog it till it croaks" engine. The 433 is a great engine but I have to baby it since I have no back up. I'd estimate it's only around 575 hp.
The old Sanction I ran with used power to weight ratios and was much easier to compete in, HSR is cu in based with no limits on what you get out of them.

This rusty chunk is $350 bucks.

[tom s]

1 1/2 HP per CI should be pretty easy with a max build,are you limited on CR?Might talk to Dave,as I remember he had a very high HP 400.Tom

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by tom s

OK,off the wall engine!63 326 block 70 over,316 crank 3.25 stroke with bearing spacers 302.96.ALL pontiac.BUT you still have the std deck issue with the long ass rods.Tom

Tom,
What stroke and rod length did the 366's have and how did they run?

Stan

[tom s]

I think a 4in stroke is right in the wheelhouse of our pontiacs.Tom

[tom s]

I have built 2 366s,one short deck and one std deck RA Vs.Not much diff in HP as built but car drove COMPLETELY diff with the Xtra weight on the front end.I think the short deck was more snappy?Revved quicker?Tom

[ho428]

Originally Posted by tom s

1 1/2 HP per CI should be pretty easy with a max build,are you limited on CR?Might talk to Dave,as I remember he had a very high HP 400.Tom

The heads have 75 cc chambers, if I got something like a 10cc dome I'd be in the 13:1 range.
We originally spec'd everything around a pump gas engine based on the pwr to weight class, since that's now out the window I can see what Dave thinks.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by ho428

It's a rusty SOB so I'll have to see where it is now. Really getting hard to find much in this area.
I've got the new KRE 305 heads that Dave did for me, a scat 4", Northwind and 950 Pro systems carb.

I'd like to somehow pull 650+ hp out of this 440. The heads will do over 7000 and .620 lift. If I recall on the chart they flowed around 305 at .600
The plan is to add splayed caps, and modify the oiling system some more. This will be my, "time to use the redline and flog it till it croaks" engine. The 433 is a great engine but I have to baby it since I have no back up. I'd estimate it's only around 575 hp.
The old Sanction I ran with used power to weight ratios and was much easier to compete in, HSR is cu in based with no limits on what you get out of them.

This rusty chunk is $350 bucks.

My '72 YS block is just about that rusty, but I'm pretty sure it would clean up at .060.