[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by tom s

he has a block!No need to get a early block!He is not building a top fueler,If he goes to a really big cam he will need a mega brace on either,if he think its needed 4 bolts will be the same on either.At 1 1/2 HP per ci a stock bloc will be fine.I just see no need for a pre 64 block for his needs.If he wanted to go off the edge than a alu block or a short deck would save him the weight off the front end.The early block wont do that.And if he wanted to go to a 4in bore the sleeve deal will be stupid expensive with either block.For a 303 he would be taking a knife to a gun fight with a std deck block.A 301T block would be good for a 303 but it then needs a custom crank and custom head gasket along with 4 bolt caps.My hat is off to him for what he has been doing.Looks like his best bang for the buck is to go the 400 plus route.I like going off the reservation as much a virtually anyone except maybe Jack but a early block has no use in the conversation IMO.Carry on.Tom

Tom, from the conversations you and I have had over the last couple of years I would have to agree. Don's suggestion of using the 301T block is interesting to say the least considering your and Joe's success with the 383. Until someone develops a CGI or aluminum short deck Pontiac block that is somewhat affordable, the 400 route seem to be the most effective way to go. The early blocks are great for hot street and drag racing engines, but in road racing weight bias is everything. I once read that Enzo Ferrari's goal on EVERY racing platform was the perfect 50/50 weight balance. Wait a minute...CGI is 4 times stronger than grey iron, but is 30% lighter. Would it be possible to update, strengthen the weaknesses and cast a 301T block in CGI? Wouldn't that potentially solve the problem?

[tom s]

IF! And that is a HUGE IF anyone had the FU money to even think about doing another pontiac block I see NO need for a short deck!I think I have built more off the wall pontiac engines.3 short deck block,dont know how many RA V iron engines,two FACTORY alu block from 2 diff generations and you have not a snowballs chance in hell of getting any ROI on building it.We drag racers have it hard but nowhere near as hard as someone trying to road race a pontiac with a pontiac.Im doing a 455 for mine as my 366 NASCAR V engine would be a dog and WAY to valuable to take a chance on breaking.Tom

[Don Keefe]

According to Frank Gostyla, the 9.5-inch short deck IA2 can be milled to the 9.225 inches, which puts it on the list for consideration. It would need to be sleeved down but would otherwise be usable as is. In addition to being very beefy, they also offer the option of running a smaller-diameter 2.75-inch LS main journal with an aftermarket spacer. The only real disadvantage is that it isn't the lightest alternative available and may not be allowed in certain vintage classes requiring a factory block.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by tom s

IF! And that is a HUGE IF anyone had the FU money to even think about doing another pontiac block I see NO need for a short deck!I think I have built more off the wall pontiac engines.3 short deck block,dont know how many RA V iron engines,two FACTORY alu block from 2 diff generations and you have not a snowballs chance in hell of getting any ROI on building it.We drag racers have it hard but nowhere near as hard as someone trying to road race a pontiac with a pontiac.Im doing a 455 for mine as my 366 NASCAR V engine would be a dog and WAY to valuable to take a chance on breaking.Tom

Good point. It would take a minimum of 100 blocks to even make it a reasonable proposition cost wise.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

According to Frank Gostyla, the 9.5-inch short deck IA2 can be milled to the 9.225 inches, which puts it on the list for consideration. It would need to be sleeved down but would otherwise be usable as is. In addition to being very beefy, they also offer the option of running a smaller-diameter 2.75-inch LS main journal with an aftermarket spacer. The only real disadvantage is that it isn't the lightest alternative available and may not be allowed in certain vintage classes requiring a factory block.

Don, what about a limited run in CGI? That's basically what Ford, Chevy and Toyota are doing with their NASCAR engine programs: limited runs of race only CGI blocks.

[Don Keefe]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Don, what about a limited run in CGI? That's basically what Ford, Chevy and Toyota are doing with their NASCAR engine programs: limited runs of race only CGI blocks.

I haven't spoken to Frank or Bob about that but they are both very sharp guys and I am willing to bet that they have researched the topic.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

I haven't spoken to Frank or Bob about that but they are both very sharp guys and I am willing to bet that they have researched the topic.

I know that Dart offers optional CGI casting with most of their higher end blocks.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by tom s

IF! And that is a HUGE IF anyone had the FU money to even think about doing another pontiac block I see NO need for a short deck!I think I have built more off the wall pontiac engines.3 short deck block,dont know how many RA V iron engines,two FACTORY alu block from 2 diff generations and you have not a snowballs chance in hell of getting any ROI on building it.We drag racers have it hard but nowhere near as hard as someone trying to road race a pontiac with a pontiac.Im doing a 455 for mine as my 366 NASCAR V engine would be a dog and WAY to valuable to take a chance on breaking.Tom

During the late 80's-early 90's a PA fella was top-dog successful autocrossing a 71 T/A 455 HO TH400 combo. Well until the #2 exhaust valve dropped its head during a run and steamed anti freeze out the exhaust while returning to the pits. I bought the hurt engine.
He built anew.

His closest in-classcompetitor was a 70 Z-28 SBC 4-Speed that spun very high hi-rpm by comparison, and they took turns with 1st place.

So that convined me that the 455-TH400 was a competitive road racer, butt hey itsa heavy compared to 4-cyls econoboxes and the Exotics.

[Don Keefe]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

During the late 80's-early 90's a PA fella was top-dog successful autocrossing a 71 T/A 455 HO TH400 combo. Well until the #2 exhaust valve dropped its head during a run and steamed anti freeze out the exhaust while returning to the pits. I bought the hurt engine.
He built anew.

His closest in-classcompetitor was a 70 Z-28 SBC 4-Speed that spun very high hi-rpm by comparison, and they took turns with 1st place.

So that convined me that the 455-TH400 was a competitive road racer, butt hey itsa heavy compared to 4-cyls econoboxes and the Exotics.

That was the cool thing about the different approaches by Pontiac and Chevy- the high-winding small-block vs. the torque monster Pontiac. Two different approaches to similar goals.

[taff2]

It's not all about weight,it's about weight bias. Can't remove weight from the front end? Move everything you can to the rear end of the car to get closer to that 50/50 balance!

[taff2]

What does it cost over there for a sleeve,$100 a bore? $800 doesn't seem bad to me.

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by taff2

What does it cost over there for a sleeve,$100 a bore? $800 doesn't seem bad to me.

I recently(last month) paid about $120 US per cylinder including the sleeve itself.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by wovenweb

I recently(last month) paid about $120 US per cylinder including the sleeve itself.

$120 per sleeve is a good price; the problem is finding a COMPETENT machinist to install then without turning the block into a worthless boat anchor.

[tom s]

Most machinist tell me its not a good idea to do all 8 sleeves as it can compromise the strength and integrity of the block.The only block I have ever done that to was a early pontiac 389 alu block that was intended to be run like a Vega with no sleeves.We used 350 60 over thinwall steel sleeves in it.Tom

[Half-Inch Stud]

8 Nicasil Aluminum Sleeves in the V8 for reduced weight and performance....now THAT would be amazing.

[tom s]

HIS,Fritz told me they even tried hard anodizing the bores to keep from putting sleeves in those early alu blocks.Tom

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by taff2

It's not all about weight,it's about weight bias. Can't remove weight from the front end? Move everything you can to the rear end of the car to get closer to that 50/50 balance!

On a car that turns corners, moving weight to the rear only can be done between the axles. Once you move weight beyond the rear axle it becomes counter productive by causing extra inertia when navigating a corner making the rear wanting to swap ends.

There is a point that moving weight from front to the rear causes handling problems and negates the good it does. In a drag car it's not as important to keep the weight between the axles and as low as possible.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Brad,

Yeap, is why my battery is mounted on the trunk shelf above the rear.
Been opining about moving the battery close to the rear bumper to promote bigger wheelstands, but i do drive the car on Streets way more than the 1/4.

[tom s]

In case someone wants a 301T block
http://www.ebay.com/itm/132040082653...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by tom s

Most machinist tell me its not a good idea to do all 8 sleeves as it can compromise the strength and integrity of the block.The only block I have ever done that to was a early pontiac 389 alu block that was intended to be run like a Vega with no sleeves.We used 350 60 over thinwall steel sleeves in it.Tom

Precisely, Tom. We wouldn't put 8 sleeves in V8 diesel block; 2 per bank was our limit. As most of you know, diesels have much thicker cylinder walls and decks than V8 gasoline engines.