[taff2]

Don't forget I am talking about sleeving an undamaged, thick wall,early block with a stock bore of 4.062" down to 4.00" , not just sleeving a damaged bore or two. Thin wall liners are available so that the early bores would only need to be bored out to 4.100", no problem for an early block. My own '59 389 block is bored to 4.090" and is making around 1000hp.
I agree that a good machine shop should be found for this procedure,and personally I would use a top hat liner Loctited in . It was just a thought if the OP was set on a 4.00" bore.. Probably easier to use the stock bore size and a custom short stroke crank.

[ho428]

Originally Posted by taff2

It's not all about weight,it's about weight bias. Can't remove weight from the front end? Move everything you can to the rear end of the car to get closer to that 50/50 balance!

Only to a point. When Mustang's, Camaro's and Corvettes are about 300, 200 and 100 pounds lighter and have good bias, getting my bias more in line isn't going to help much.
Yep, the Corvette's generally weigh more than the Camaro's, might be why I run better with them.

I need about 150 off total, going to install lexan glass front and rear, probably get a hollow front sway bar, rear I'll go to an aluminum fuel cell container but add a Watts link so no net loss in the rear.

A short deck block is the only possible non Aluminum block option to drop more significant weight in the front and stay Pontiac.
The 301T looks like the only viable block to do that with, but the cost of the build might be too much to tackle though. A lot of custom one off parts.

[Don Keefe]

Originally Posted by ho428

Only to a point. When Mustang's, Camaro's and Corvettes are about 300, 200 and 100 pounds lighter and have good bias, getting my bias more in line isn't going to help much.
Yep, the Corvette's generally weigh more than the Camaro's, might be why I run better with them.

I need about 150 off total, going to install lexan glass front and rear, probably get a hollow front sway bar, rear I'll go to an aluminum fuel cell container but add a Watts link so no net loss in the rear.

A short deck block is the only possible non Aluminum block option to drop more significant weight in the front and stay Pontiac.
The 301T looks like the only viable block to do that with, but the cost of the build might be too much to tackle though. A lot of custom one off parts.

Right- plus after you have already moved everything around to its optimum location, the only other place to take out weight is the engine. Adams acid-dipped the tall deck blocks to take out weight after everything else was done on the Gray Ghost and believe me, a tone of stuff was done...

[tom s]

The only real custom one offs are the crank and intake,maybe head gaskets.The Butler gaskets worked for me.BBC rod and a custom piston that would be needed in almost any build.Biggest expense is the crank.At one time I looked into buying a vintage hilborn injection and convert to EFI.Then no custom intake needed.Tom

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by taff2

Don't forget I am talking about sleeving an undamaged, thick wall,early block with a stock bore of 4.062" down to 4.00" , not just sleeving a damaged bore or two. Thin wall liners are available so that the early bores would only need to be bored out to 4.100", no problem for an early block. My own '59 389 block is bored to 4.090" and is making around 1000hp.
I agree that a good machine shop should be found for this procedure,and personally I would use a top hat liner Loctited in . It was just a thought if the OP was set on a 4.00" bore.. Probably easier to use the stock bore size and a custom short stroke crank.

Anytime you sleeve a block, you must remove stock from the cylinder walls and deck. It doesn't matter how thick or thin the wall is; sleeving will distort and weaken the the base wall. That is why you never install two sleeve side by side.The blocks I referred to have quarter inch thick cylinder walls, yet we would NEVER install two sleeves side by side because of overstressing the common cylinder wall. "Thin wall" is a misnomer. I just reviewed the Melling sleeve catalog. The thinnest wall(1/8") universal sleeve with a 4" bore (nominal 3.970) has an outside diameter of 4.1280. The thinnest wall(3/32")high performance sleeve with a 4" bore (nominal 3.970) has an outside diameter of 4.1905. Let's assume the common wall between cylinder #2 and cylinder #4 is .180 @ 4.062. To achieve the press diameter for the sleeve(.003 press..4.1250), you'll be taking a total of .063 of material out of the common wall (now .117). I would never used a universal sleeve in a racing engine, so a 3/32" high performance sleeve would have to be used. You'd be reducing the common cylinder wall thickness by .1255. This why you NEVER place two sleeves side by side.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

You'd be reducing the common cylinder wall thickness by .1255. This why you NEVER place two sleeves side by side.

The one time I have seen a very successful "all 8 sleeves" deal that worked was on a Bonneville Turbo Charged Chevy engine with a custom 4.005" bore and a Chevy 400 block with a normal bore at 4.125". With that arrangement the sleeved 400 Engine block was barely touched between the common wall, the block wound up with much thicker wall structure vs a normal 350 Chevy block, and the engine ran well under high boost and good cooling for only 7 miles.

Tom V.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

The one time I have seen a very successful "all 8 sleeves" deal that worked was on a Bonneville Turbo Charged Chevy engine with a custom 4.005" bore and a Chevy 400 block with a normal bore at 4.125". With that arrangement the sleeved 400 Engine block was barely touched between the common wall, the block wound up with much thicker wall structure vs a normal 350 Chevy block, and the engine ran well under high boost and good cooling for only 7 miles.

Tom V.

Using a thick wall sleeve you CAN do this: however, having installed several hundred sleeves in both diesel and gasoline engines, I would NOT recommend this for a road racing engine that will see a much longer run duration than seven miles. Another advantage is the 400 SBC block has siamesed cylinder walls. Pontiac do not have this advantage. Aluminum LS blocks are routinely resleeved on all cylinders, but the sleeves are designed to be freestanding. The sleeves in modular Fords actually interlock on the deck side. Even with a "thin wall" sleeve, you'd looking at a Pontiac block with extremely thin supporting walls for the sleeves. I've seen sleeves that have cracked from top to bottom due to cylinder flutter because the supporting cylinder walls were too thin. These sleeves were in diesel engines that don't see the high side of 3,000 RPM, let alone a road racing engine that could see an 8,000 RPM red line.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by taff2

Don't forget I am talking about sleeving an undamaged, thick wall,early block with a stock bore of 4.062" down to 4.00" , not just sleeving a damaged bore or two. Thin wall liners are available so that the early bores would only need to be bored out to 4.100", no problem for an early block. My own '59 389 block is bored to 4.090" and is making around 1000hp.
I agree that a good machine shop should be found for this procedure,and personally I would use a top hat liner Loctited in . It was just a thought if the OP was set on a 4.00" bore.. Probably easier to use the stock bore size and a custom short stroke crank.

My 1st 59 block was 4.21 bore! Thats nearly .150 over stock! Its likely there was room for more. (My wife gave the block to the guy who bought my car. I was out of state for a few weeks before I found out)

The 528 Ford(.060 over 4.3 stroke 6.8 rods) I built a few years back. had 3 sleeves(Dartons) side by side and one on the opposite bank...Ended up in a 3000lb Mustang initially running high 8 sec in 1/4 mile. he quit drag racing after two seasons and put the motor in his Jet boat. I'm told he runs the snot out of it. If issues with sleeves side by side I'm sure I'd have heard about it by now. 76 passenger 460 blocks arent known for thick walls. only thing stronger on them over an early 70's Pontiac block is the lifter valley.

301T blocks(1979) and all newer 301 blocks (1980 and 1981) are pretty much the same block and seem as strong as an early 70's block. I know of one that sono'd safe for a substantial bore increase(4.155 with partial fill). 3" "400 style" cranks can have thrusts welded and recut to fit, or mods allowing 400 thrust bearing in 301 block. Strokes can be altered (de-stroked or stroked)considerably going with smaller rod journals(SBC 2.1,2.0, Honda 1.88??) and offset grinding. Intake manifold is a challenge...modified stock 301 turbo intake set up for MPFI? or cut and weld cast aftermarket or sheet metal.

[tom s]

Bruce,no way to get a 3 3/4 stroke crank to 3 in!Tom

[hurryinhoosier62]

Bruce, I've installed too many sleeves. You'll never see me install two side by side UNLESS it's in a modular Ford or an LS. It's just too "iffy". You have no idea how much corrosion is in the water jacket, if there is any errosion from coolant flow or if porosity is present in the cylinder walls. BTW....many 385 series Ford blocks were cast with siamesed cylinders. All the current Ford Racing 460 blocks utilize siamesed cylinders.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Using a thick wall sleeve you CAN do this: however, having installed several hundred sleeves in both diesel and gasoline engines, I would NOT recommend this for a road racing engine that will see a much longer run duration than seven miles. Another advantage is the 400 SBC block has siamesed cylinder walls. Pontiac do not have this advantage. Aluminum LS blocks are routinely resleeved on all cylinders, but the sleeves are designed to be freestanding. The sleeves in modular Fords actually interlock on the deck side. Even with a "thin wall" sleeve, you'd looking at a Pontiac block with extremely thin supporting walls for the sleeves. I've seen sleeves that have cracked from top to bottom due to cylinder flutter because the supporting cylinder walls were too thin. These sleeves were in diesel engines that don't see the high side of 3,000 RPM, let alone a road racing engine that could see an 8,000 RPM red line.

Very True, a Bonneville vehicle just runs 7 miles and in some cases (like when the vehicle can run 462 mph), the actual run time is fairly short. A road race vehicle as mentioned is a whole different game.

But again, the OP is trying to get to a specific cid number, use traditional pontiac parts, and not spend much money.

Even with using a Honda rod journal rod, asking to destroke an engine 3/4" is a big stretch of the imagination.

Tom V.

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

1> ... It doesn't matter how thick or thin the wall is...
2> ... because of overstressing the common cylinder wall....
3> ... Let's assume the common wall between cylinder #2 and cylinder #4 is .180...

You're confusing me-

1> Say what? How could block strength not relate to cylinder wall thickness?
2> "common wall" has no meaning here- we're talking about Pontiac V8 blocks in which all eight cylinders are non-siamesed.
3> Huh? All Pontiac V8 blocks have 4.62" bore centers. 4.100" bores would leave .520" between the walls of adjacent cylinders. Where did you get .180"?

Bruce Wilkie's success with multiple sleeved engines doesn't surprise me at all. My own sleeved blown-alky V8 hemi (370 c.i., 9,000 RPM, over 900 HP) uses a very fragile M/T aluminum block (all of 69 pounds which was intended for bore-plating not sleeving) is still running fine after many years of hard-fought competition.

[tom s]

Tom,to grind a crank even half that really changes where the oil holes end up.It has always been a issue when I was offset grinding 57-58 cranks for my short deck V engines.Tom

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Jack Gifford

You're confusing me-

1> Say what? How could block strength not relate to cylinder wall thickness?
2> "common wall" has no meaning here- we're talking about Pontiac V8 blocks in which all eight cylinders are non-siamesed.
3> Huh? All Pontiac V8 blocks have 4.62" bore centers. 4.100" bores would leave .520" between the walls of adjacent cylinders. Where did you get .180"?

Bruce Wilkie's success with multiple sleeved engines doesn't surprise me at all. My own sleeved blown-alky V8 hemi (370 c.i., 9,000 RPM, over 900 HP) uses a very fragile M/T aluminum block (all of 69 pounds which was intended for bore-plating not sleeving) is still running fine after many years of hard-fought competition.

Jack,

1.) Read my ENTIRE statement...I specify that sleeving actually WEAKENS the base cylinder wall. The maximum press on a sleeve is .003. I've seen base cylinder walls crack and break out just installing a sleeve. We had a guy that thought tighter was better when installing a sleeve. It's NOT. The sleeving process can actually distort the base wall to the extent that it bulges outwards.


2.) I specify this in a later post: NO Pontiac block was ever cast with siamesed cylinder walls. Siamesed block are far easier to sleeve than non-siamesesd cylinder walls.

3.) Paul Carter and I had a long conversation off line about minimum cylinder wall thickness. The rule of thumb when I was learning engine building was .140 minimum thickness on the cylinders walls, period. Paul commented that he had ultrasonic tested a '59 389 and found the side walls were .180, NOT .520. You know, there are water passages in there as well as cylinder walls.

Lastly, have you ever sleeved a block? I have. There are very few blocks I would consider placing two sleeves side by side. A siamesed block would be one of those. Pontiac are NOT siamesed; therefore I would NOT do it based on my experience as an engine machinist. I worked for the largest indpendent engine remanufacturer for several years. We sleeved both diesel and gasoline blocks every day. Our policy was to NOT place two sleeves side by side in a V-block, period. We had to warranty these engines for 3 years/36,000 miles. We didn't take unnecessary chances...

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Very True, a Bonneville vehicle just runs 7 miles and in some cases (like when the vehicle can run 462 mph), the actual run time is fairly short. A road race vehicle as mentioned is a whole different game.

But again, the OP is trying to get to a specific cid number, use traditional pontiac parts, and not spend much money.

Even with using a Honda rod journal rod, asking to destroke an engine 3/4" is a big stretch of the imagination.

Tom V.

I agree totally. ITWM, I would consider Don's advice and investigate using a 301T block with a custom crank.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Anytime you sleeve a block, you must remove stock from the cylinder walls and deck. It doesn't matter how thick or thin the wall is; sleeving will distort and weaken the the base wall. That is why you never install two sleeve side by side.The blocks I referred to have quarter inch thick cylinder walls, yet we would NEVER install two sleeves side by side because of overstressing the common cylinder wall. "Thin wall" is a misnomer. I just reviewed the Melling sleeve catalog. The thinnest wall(1/8") universal sleeve with a 4" bore (nominal 3.970) has an outside diameter of 4.1280. The thinnest wall(3/32")high performance sleeve with a 4" bore (nominal 3.970) has an outside diameter of 4.1905. Let's assume the common wall between cylinder #2 and cylinder #4 is .180 @ 4.062. To achieve the press diameter for the sleeve(.003 press..4.1250), you'll be taking a total of .063 of material out of the common wall (now .117). I would never used a universal sleeve in a racing engine, so a 3/32" high performance sleeve would have to be used. You'd be reducing the common cylinder wall thickness by .1255. This why you NEVER place two sleeves side by side.

Originally Posted by Jack Gifford

You're confusing me-

1> Say what? How could block strength not relate to cylinder wall thickness?
2> "common wall" has no meaning here- we're talking about Pontiac V8 blocks in which all eight cylinders are non-siamesed.
3> Huh? All Pontiac V8 blocks have 4.62" bore centers. 4.100" bores would leave .520" between the walls of adjacent cylinders. Where did you get .180"?

Bruce Wilkie's success with multiple sleeved engines doesn't surprise me at all. My own sleeved blown-alky V8 hemi (370 c.i., 9,000 RPM, over 900 HP) uses a very fragile M/T aluminum block (all of 69 pounds which was intended for bore-plating not sleeving) is still running fine after many years of hard-fought competition.

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Jack,

1.) Read my ENTIRE statement...I specify that sleeving actually WEAKENS the base cylinder wall. The maximum press on a sleeve is .003. I've seen base cylinder walls crack and break out just installing a sleeve. We had a guy that thought tighter was better when installing a sleeve. It's NOT. The sleeving process can actually distort the base wall to the extent that it bulges outwards.


2.) I specify this in a later post: NO Pontiac block was ever cast with siamesed cylinder walls. Siamesed block are far easier to sleeve than non-siamesesd cylinder walls.

3.) Paul Carter and I had a long conversation off line about minimum cylinder wall thickness. The rule of thumb when I was learning engine building was .140 minimum thickness on the cylinders walls, period. Paul commented that he had ultrasonic tested a '59 389 and found the side walls were .180, NOT .520. You know, there are water passages in there as well as cylinder walls.

Lastly, have you ever sleeved a block? I have. There are very few blocks I would consider placing two sleeves side by side. A siamesed block would be one of those. Pontiac are NOT siamesed; therefore I would NOT do it based on my experience as an engine machinist. I worked for the largest indpendent engine remanufacturer for several years. We sleeved both diesel and gasoline blocks every day. Our policy was to NOT place two sleeves side by side in a V-block, period. We had to warranty these engines for 3 years/36,000 miles. We didn't take unnecessary chances...

It seems that see what you want to see and not what was written. Jack never said the cylinder wall was .520". What he did was say how thick the deck was between 2 cylinders that are next to each other verse what you said in your first post.

I will leave it to others to answer your questioning Jack's machining skills.

Stan

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

It seems that see what you want to see and not what was written. Jack never said the cylinder wall was .520". What he did was say how thick the deck was between 2 cylinders that are next to each other verse what you said in your first post.

I will leave it to others to answer your questioning Jack's machining skills.

Stan

Didn't question Jack's machine skills nor would I. I stand in awe of Jack's work. We simply disagree on sleeving. Don't attempt to start an argument that isn't there. I may have not been accurate enough in my explanation. If so and if this has cause confusion, I apologize. My explanation was a GENERALIZATION of sleeving, NOT an exact blow-by-blow description. There's not enough bandwidth here for that...

[taff2]

Ok, my '59 389 block that I sonic checked was much thicker than the one that Paul checked, none of the walls were less than .200" and most places were .240".
So going off your figures for sleeve sizes and press fit etc.
Do we all agree that it would be fine to bore a stock 4.062" early block out to 4.125" ? That's 0.063" in total, so 0.0315" either side, dropping the thickness of the bore wall from (lets use Pauls numbers) 0.180" to 0.1485".
Right, so now we are going to sleeve the early block. Using your figures, we again bore the stock 4.062 stock bore out to 4.125" to take the 4.128" diameter thin wall sleeve. So we still have a 4.125" hole with a minimum 0.1485" wall thickness each side! But we then strengthen the bores slightly by pressing in a high quality thin wall sleeve, giving us the finished 4.00" finished bore size we wanted.
There is no 'common' wall on an early 389 block like a siamesed Chevy block, each bore has a water jacket between it and the adjacent one,so each bore wall is .180" thick, the only place they are joined is at the top close to the deck, and at the base, where the metal is quite a lot thicker.
Personally I think a 0.003" press fit is too tight in an iron block-contributing to the distortion you speak of-, I would be happier with 0.0015" to 0.002" and a good locking compound-Green Loctite comes to mind. Here is where finding a 'good' machine shop to do this process is essential,not your average truck/commercial sleeving facility.
Sleeving of all 8 bores was routine before high performance blocks were available.
A road race engine does not see anywhere near the cylinder pressures of a forced induction drag engine, heat build up would be my concern in a road race application and this is easily addressed with a proper cooling system.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat and the way I would go if it was my project, but it's just my opinion.

[taff2]

Ways I would use to get weight off the front end- tubular crossmember and A arms,rack and pinion steering, ali coil over shock absorbers,ali hubs and brake calipers,ali radiator,ali water pump and thin stock timing cover,small Nippon Denso alternator(40-65 amps,comes on Kubota diggers),ali oil pan,etc. Then I would get out the hole saw and cheese drill everything I could! If I was really serious, I would then look at the factory block to see where I could remove metal off the outside of it, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of un-necessary casting lumps etc that could be trimmed or ground off. It all depends on how serious you want to get really!

[ho428]

Originally Posted by taff2

Ways I would use to get weight off the front end- tubular crossmember and A arms,rack and pinion steering, ali coil over shock absorbers,ali hubs and brake calipers,ali radiator,ali water pump and thin stock timing cover,small Nippon Denso alternator(40-65 amps,comes on Kubota diggers),ali oil pan,etc. Then I would get out the hole saw and cheese drill everything I could! If I was really serious, I would then look at the factory block to see where I could remove metal off the outside of it, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of un-necessary casting lumps etc that could be trimmed or ground off. It all depends on how serious you want to get really!

In Vintage road racing you have to run a stock OEM style suspension, no tubular or coil over anything.
I am looking at the alternator and PS pump, not a big savings but every little bit adds up.
That Quick Time bell is heavy but running an 8" dual disc aluminum flywheel and clutch, I feel safer with it there.
QA-1 Carbon fiber driveshaft is on the wish list.