[Mcronk]

So I was at a show yesterday looking at a 69 Judge. Spoke with owner and he claimed he bought the car about a year ago from a classic car dealer (well known) and the car was a real Judge. Upon inspection of the trim tag I noticed the paint codes 72 10. The car was presented in Carousel Red with a Black vinyl top. Code 10 in 69 would have been Starlight Black painted top. Strange. There is not a vinyl top code that starts with a 1 that year. I could not tell what plant built the car. Did some plants do something different on trim tage codes? Car did have WS block and the "typical" incorrect parts (70 cowl grills instead of wire mesh, wrong fuel line, etc.) Picture of car.

[bdk1976]

Not sure what your question is - was the owner claiming it was originally a vinyl top car? Not uncommon for a painted top car to have a vinyl top added down the line (or even removed, but then you have to deal with the trim issue). Judge with a painted top would be unusual but not unique, IMO.

[Mcronk]

Sorry if I was confusing. The car is a 69 not a 70. Code 10 for 69 is Starlight Black. So the paint code on the trim tag reads 72 10. Which would seem to indicate this Judge had a painted Starlight Black top. Seems strange as most of the two tone Judges I have seen were Cameo white top. The Pontiac plant used the number system on trim tags for paint in 69 but other plants used a letter system. So it appears this car left the factory with Carousel Red lower body and Starlight Black upper body. BTW you are correct code 10 for 1970 is Polar White.

[turbo69bird]

Pretty cool catch on the trim tag will be interesting what it means.

[Mcronk]

I have a feeling that at some point a vinyl top was put on. The combination of Carousel Red and a painted black top might have been "unpopular" for resale. This time of year the color combo reminds me of Halloween! LOL I wish I had a picture but lighting was so bad and at such an angle it was not possible.

[Cammer-6]

wasnt there an oddball paint combo Judge at a POCI convention?(maybe PA)
IIRC it was blue painted top and Carousel lower.

[Mcronk]

I know there are two tone Judge cars. There used to be a Matador Red with white painted top in north Brevard. I have seen pictures of others. I am pretty sure, based on the research I did, that his car should have been a painted black top. The guy lives in Lakeland area and has a musclecar collection. This was the only Pontiac he has. He said he had the PHS on the car and it was a real Judge. I may have to track him down and see if he will share a copy of the PHS.

[north]

All plants (including the home plant) used a number code for paint color and a letter code for convertible or vinyl top colors on the trim tag in 69. Oddly they did the opposite on the PHS where the paint color is a letter and the vinyl or convertible top code is a number. Go figure.

That Judge would like better all CR but a black painted upper color would like nicer and more interesting with it's top painted black instead of the vinyl top.

[Mcronk]

I am a little confused. The GTOAA Illustrated Identification Guide says this (for all plants except Pontiac, which retains number codes) Convertible top A= Ivory B=Black C= Dark Blue G= Dark Green Cordova vinyl top colors B= Black C= Dark Blue E= Parchment F= Dark Fawn G= Dark Green". So I thought this meant the Pontiac plant still used numbers for both lower and upper trim identification in 1969.

[north]

Not in 69, I’ve got photos of hundreds of GTO trim tags from all six plants for that model year. All use the same code system. However the home plant didn’t build any GTO’s (and probably no A bodies) until April 69 because of the 69 GP’s all being built at the home plant. Perhaps early in 69 model run the home plant hadn’t switched yet.

I’ll have a look at a few GP trim tags built in the fall of 68.

[Mcronk]

North thanks for your expertise. I don't understand why the GTOAA Guide would make that statement. I owned two 69 GTOs. One built in Atlanta plant (Palladium Silver black interior hardtop, no vinyl top). The other I do not recall the plant but remember the trim code 53 E (Warwick Blue with Parchment vinyl top). I find it very interesting that no GTOs were built at Pontiac in 1969 till after April. I have 4 Pontiacs and somehow they are all home plant built cars. Two of them are 68s, one 67, and one 72.

[north]

Another tidbit is GTO (and LeMans) convertibles were only built in three of the six plants (Baltimore, Arlington and Fremont).

Also it seems that once the started building GTO’s in Pontiac in April they stopped building hardtop GTO’s in Baltimore. There seems to be a few exceptions to this rule but they obviously largely stopped producing hardtops there. The exceptions might have been leftover bodies from Fisher?

[Mcronk]

Interesting and thanks for sharing that. Here is another trim tag for your collection. This is the car I was referring to with the codes 72 10. Appears to be a Arlington built car first week of April?

[Mcronk]

I am sure you have seen this production chart for 1969 Judge vehicles from Fred Simmonds. Shows no convertible Judges from Pontiac, Farmingham, and Atlanta. Pontiac sure got busy in April to equal almost as many Judges as the other plants built.

[Diego]

Originally Posted by Mcronk

I know there are two tone Judge cars. There used to be a Matador Red with white painted top in north Brevard. I have seen pictures of others. I am pretty sure, based on the research I did, that his car should have been a painted black top. The guy lives in Lakeland area and has a musclecar collection. This was the only Pontiac he has. He said he had the PHS on the car and it was a real Judge. I may have to track him down and see if he will share a copy of the PHS.

This car is now monotone. If I recall, it sold earlier this year on Bring A Trailer.