#1  
Old 07-19-2021, 06:32 PM
grivera's Avatar
grivera grivera is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Just south of Baltimore
Posts: 3,686
Default 69 Firebird Water Pump Height

My 69 Firebird 400 was built in February 1970. What water pump length should it have? 4 or 4.5?

__________________
Will Rivera

'69 Bird 400/461: Eagle forged assembly; Ross Pistons w/8cc reliefs; JBP 290+ E D-Ports @ 81cc; SD Stump Puller (230/236@50 .565/.570 lift 112 LSA) 857-16 Lifters; Sniper EFI with Hyperspark Dizzy, CD Box and Coil, RPM Intake, RARE LB Manifolds, 2.5 exhaust, x-pipe and Dynomax ST's; TH400, 13" Continental Converter; 3.08 8.5" 10-bolt
  #2  
Old 07-21-2021, 02:48 PM
north's Avatar
north north is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,604
Default

I assume you mean February 69? The new 69 V8 waterpump was changed a few months into production (late 1968) from the original4" to the longer 4.5" design with revised pulley's to match. However the exception was the Firebird, it retained the 4" version throught the entire model run because of insufficient fan to rad clearance on F bodies.

__________________
My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Sprint & 400 Convertibles, TA Hardtop)
1969 LeMans (4dr Hardtop & Convertible)
1969 GTO (2 Hardtops, Convertible & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Cat (2dr Hardtop & Convertible)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Convertible)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #3  
Old 07-21-2021, 11:10 PM
'ol Pinion head 'ol Pinion head is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: INJUN Territory, Red State Merica!
Posts: 8,834
Default

'69 Pontiac V8's used the short (4" hub height) 11 bolt waterpump, casting 9796351.
The last dates cast in Pontiac's Central Foundary of the "351" water pumps were in late June of '69. I've pulled over a half a dozen June of '69 dated "351" casting wp's to rebuild over the last 29 years along with multiple dozen which were dated earlier in the '69 calendar year. F049 & F239 were two of the dates, I've had that were cast very late.

'70 model Pontiac V8's went to the first 4.5" hub height 11 bolt water pump. These were the 9799124 casting water pump. The first dated "124"s I've had were dated in July of '69 (Gxx9).
Between original "351" & "124" casting water pumps, I've easily pulled 7-8 dozen since '92, when I first had original Pontiac water pumps rebuilt. Have also picked up quite a few loose at swappers & from fellow Pontiacer's garage clean outs.

Have numerous original dated Pontiac Master Parts Catalogues. Earliest is dated in '71. I do not have a late '69 or 3/70 dated MPC. Some time in that time range, it became an official Pontiac Service procedure to replace the original short "351" 1969 water pump along with its corresponding "059-062" '69 model water pump pulley with a tall "124" casting wp. In doing so it also required changing to the correct '70 Pontiac V8 A, B, G series wp pulley; a "127 through "130".

At the bottom of Group 1.062 in my 3/72 dated Pontiac MPC (its handy) there is the following note;
(*4) "Must be used with water pump with casting ending w/9124, when replacing original water pump with casting No 9796351.

The above note was carried forward in quarterly dated Pontiac MPC for pre '74 models up till the last printed bound version of the models through '74 Pontiac MPC, dated April 1983. Im sure it was first noted in Pontiac Technical Service Bulletins in the very late '69 or early 70 time frame.

More for thought.
-First production '70 model A, B, G series Pontiacs were assembled in late August of 1969.
-The '69 style Firebird continued to be built up into at least Nov of 1969.
-Have rebuilt several original June of '69 dated "351" water pumps for owners of late '69 production T/A's & Firebird 400's.
-Pontiac A,B, & G series v8 engines definitely went to "124" casting "tall" 11 bolt water pump & "70 model Pontiac A, B, G series pulleys at the beginning of '70 model production.

'69 V8 Firebirds... Here's what several of us have seen. When equipped w the factory 5 blade flex fan & it's Firebird specific small round style fan spacer, swapping to a later 1/2" taller 11 bolt pump, put the 5 blade flex fan that much closer to the 4 core radiator. It did the same with the clutch fan on a factory AC car, but the 5 blade flex fan had more "move" to its blades. MY TAKE... there is an optimum spacing with the shallow early Firebird fan shroud & the factory 5 blade flex fan. Pontiac seems to have stayed with the "351" casting wp for these late '69 season V8 Firebirds, that also jives with what I've noted many years ago first pulling original dated wp's, pulleys, & timing covers from late season '69 V8 Birds.

__________________
Buzzards gotta eat... same as worms.
  #4  
Old 07-22-2021, 01:32 PM
grivera's Avatar
grivera grivera is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Just south of Baltimore
Posts: 3,686
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by north View Post
I assume you mean February 69? The new 69 V8 waterpump was changed a few months into production (late 1968) from the original4" to the longer 4.5" design with revised pulley's to match. However the exception was the Firebird, it retained the 4" version throught the entire model run because of insufficient fan to rad clearance on F bodies.
Yep - 1970, have the PHS docs. I assume since no 1970 Firebird they continued run into early 1970. Appreciate the info cause mine has the 4" pump and I may be buying the RARE billet pulley set and want to make sure I grab the right ones - figured it would be a good time to add the right water pump if mine was incorrect. https://www.ramairrestoration.com/ps...-s-no-a-c.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head View Post
'69 Pontiac V8's used the short (4" hub height) 11 bolt waterpump, casting 9796351.
The last dates cast in Pontiac's Central Foundary of the "351" water pumps were in late June of '69. I've pulled over a half a dozen June of '69 dated "351" casting wp's to rebuild over the last 29 years along with multiple dozen which were dated earlier in the '69 calendar year. F049 & F239 were two of the dates, I've had that were cast very late.

'70 model Pontiac V8's went to the first 4.5" hub height 11 bolt water pump. These were the 9799124 casting water pump. The first dated "124"s I've had were dated in July of '69 (Gxx9).
Between original "351" & "124" casting water pumps, I've easily pulled 7-8 dozen since '92, when I first had original Pontiac water pumps rebuilt. Have also picked up quite a few loose at swappers & from fellow Pontiacer's garage clean outs.

Have numerous original dated Pontiac Master Parts Catalogues. Earliest is dated in '71. I do not have a late '69 or 3/70 dated MPC. Some time in that time range, it became an official Pontiac Service procedure to replace the original short "351" 1969 water pump along with its corresponding "059-062" '69 model water pump pulley with a tall "124" casting wp. In doing so it also required changing to the correct '70 Pontiac V8 A, B, G series wp pulley; a "127 through "130".

At the bottom of Group 1.062 in my 3/72 dated Pontiac MPC (its handy) there is the following note;
(*4) "Must be used with water pump with casting ending w/9124, when replacing original water pump with casting No 9796351.

The above note was carried forward in quarterly dated Pontiac MPC for pre '74 models up till the last printed bound version of the models through '74 Pontiac MPC, dated April 1983. Im sure it was first noted in Pontiac Technical Service Bulletins in the very late '69 or early 70 time frame.

More for thought.
-First production '70 model A, B, G series Pontiacs were assembled in late August of 1969.
-The '69 style Firebird continued to be built up into at least Nov of 1969.
-Have rebuilt several original June of '69 dated "351" water pumps for owners of late '69 production T/A's & Firebird 400's.
-Pontiac A,B, & G series v8 engines definitely went to "124" casting "tall" 11 bolt water pump & "70 model Pontiac A, B, G series pulleys at the beginning of '70 model production.

'69 V8 Firebirds... Here's what several of us have seen. When equipped w the factory 5 blade flex fan & it's Firebird specific small round style fan spacer, swapping to a later 1/2" taller 11 bolt pump, put the 5 blade flex fan that much closer to the 4 core radiator. It did the same with the clutch fan on a factory AC car, but the 5 blade flex fan had more "move" to its blades. MY TAKE... there is an optimum spacing with the shallow early Firebird fan shroud & the factory 5 blade flex fan. Pontiac seems to have stayed with the "351" casting wp for these late '69 season V8 Firebirds, that also jives with what I've noted many years ago first pulling original dated wp's, pulleys, & timing covers from late season '69 V8 Birds.
These pumps are as rare as hen's teeth. I have a spare which I had rebuilt to retain cast impeller. Also, with the Hayden 2747 fan clutch and a 2 core aluminum radiator, fan's blades are only about a 1/3 way into the shroud (original AC car). Perhaps if I swapped to the long pump I could get fan in sweet spot...

__________________
Will Rivera

'69 Bird 400/461: Eagle forged assembly; Ross Pistons w/8cc reliefs; JBP 290+ E D-Ports @ 81cc; SD Stump Puller (230/236@50 .565/.570 lift 112 LSA) 857-16 Lifters; Sniper EFI with Hyperspark Dizzy, CD Box and Coil, RPM Intake, RARE LB Manifolds, 2.5 exhaust, x-pipe and Dynomax ST's; TH400, 13" Continental Converter; 3.08 8.5" 10-bolt

Last edited by grivera; 07-22-2021 at 01:39 PM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:12 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 

Cold Case Radiators

Cold Case Radiators is a Max Performance company that produces high end aluminum performance radiators at a price point that won't break the bank. Polished and stamped tanks. 2 rows of 1" tubes. Lifetime Warranty.

GTOG8TA.com

GTOG8TA.com is a Max Performance company that manufacturers parts for the 04-06 GTO, 08-09 G8, and 93-02 Firebird/Trans Am platforms.

Copyright © 2017