#41  
Old 09-14-2020, 03:25 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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North had 37 Judges accounted for with Vinyl Top.
Yours will make 38 if he doesn't already have yours listed by a previous owner.

2D would put you right up near , or at , the front spot of Vinyl Top option.
2C was basically -for the most part- the beginning of Non-Pattern Judge production.


*there are a couple/few very early special exceptions that were not full pattern*
but none of those exceptions had a vinyl top



EDIT - - -
Quote:
first CR car with a Cordova is Feb 22
That is the earliest in his data base
I don't know if he is using Invoice Date or something else.
Also don't know the build week on that one, but likely no earlier than 2C
He may have that additional info


Last edited by Baron Von Zeppelin; 09-14-2020 at 03:33 PM.
  #42  
Old 09-14-2020, 03:52 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by north View Post
Completed entering all the DON's and did a study of the Judges, some interesting tidbits...

... I was wrong about plants not having 2 cars with same special DON. I have 2 Atlanta Cars with order 00043 and two Baltimore cars with 59 (in both cases not the same dealer)

... For these reasons I suspect each of the 27 zone offices issued their own DON's. If they ordered 50-150 each averaging 60-70 each this would give you the 2,000 cars which my 24% isn't to far off from.
In case anyone was speed reading that post from North -
That was a great revelation about finally finding examples of repetition DON (000xx or 000xxx) within a given build plant.

Your efforts and labors are greatly appreciated North.

Now if we could just find one with a lower number than 00017

  #43  
Old 09-14-2020, 04:21 PM
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Thanks all for the kind words, the more invoices we get into the collection the more interesting and meaningful the data becomes.

The listing now includes one of every 14 Judges built so this is statistically significant. I have 1 of 6 Judge ragtops and 1 in 14 of all (judge and non-judge) RAIV cars.

I did already have this Cordova Judge in my listing, probably from when it was last for sale (this year I started entering a data entry date but this car was entered some time earlier so not sure when I entered it). Thanks for the trim tag date, I didn't have it before. Only about 20% of my listing has the trim tag date so more is always better.

For sake of saying which car came first I assume that the VIN number for each plant was sequentially produced. This is probably not exactly true but I suspect it is close enough. The invoice date of non-zone cars seems to follow quite closely to VIN but there are enough exceptions like fleet cars, company cars, dual invoices etc that you can't count on the invoice date other than being a general guide.

One thing I haven't looked at yet is seeing if the invoice number is sequential across all plants, if so it would help gauge the time relationship between VIN's at different plants.

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #44  
Old 09-14-2020, 04:43 PM
LOAFINGTON77109 LOAFINGTON77109 is offline
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North...is the database accessible? for curiosity sake.

  #45  
Old 09-14-2020, 06:47 PM
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No because it's not really a database. It's all in a excel database. I wish I had the skillset to have it all in a true database program, would be much more workable and easier to extract data from. I'm very protective of the quality of the data, it has a bunch of built in tests to catch data entry errors and I only enter cars where I have original factory documents, no repro window stickers or the like.

I also started a 69 Firebird listing but it's much smaller, only about 100 cars versus over 1,000 69 GTO's. just not that many 69 firebird PHS's floating around in cyberspace.

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #46  
Old 09-14-2020, 06:56 PM
LOAFINGTON77109 LOAFINGTON77109 is offline
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Are there any factory documents I can provide to you so you can add it to your database?

  #47  
Old 09-14-2020, 11:17 PM
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Basically most cars in my listing come from data I take the PHS invoice and when possible a picture of the trim tag (just to get the body build date). I also have a few that I entered without the PHS, these are entered because I have a factory build sheet.

Every car I list has its data confirmed by my direct access to a factory document.

To maintain the quality of the data I don’t enter a car based on a repro window sticker or from someone giving me a list of options and other data without also providing a PHS or build sheet.

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #48  
Old 09-15-2020, 07:32 AM
LOAFINGTON77109 LOAFINGTON77109 is offline
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Maybe you have...maybe not but have you looked at this?

http://www.69judgeregistry.com/public_html/Welcome.html

  #49  
Old 09-15-2020, 08:20 AM
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I periodically swap info with Tim.

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #50  
Old 09-15-2020, 08:29 AM
LOAFINGTON77109 LOAFINGTON77109 is offline
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Glad to see people collecting this kind of data to answer many questions on our old classics.

  #51  
Old 09-15-2020, 11:50 AM
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I have a note that this Judge was on ebay for sale back in July 2008 which was the first time I came across this car for the 69 Judge Registry

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  #52  
Old 09-15-2020, 11:57 AM
LOAFINGTON77109 LOAFINGTON77109 is offline
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Which one?

  #53  
Old 09-17-2020, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOAFINGTON77109 View Post
Which one?



Your Judge

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  #54  
Old 09-17-2020, 12:28 PM
LOAFINGTON77109 LOAFINGTON77109 is offline
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Wow, no ****!! Thats cool...glad it didnt sell! hahahaaa!!

  #55  
Old 06-15-2021, 03:02 PM
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Just passed 500 69 Judge PHS's

Nothing new interesting about Judges but just did a bit of study on seat belt options and discovered something interesting (to me anyhow ;-)…

27% of all these PHS's had deluxe belts. What is interesting is only 9% of convertibles had deluxe belts but 30% of hardtops did. this is corrupted by the pattern judges that all had deluxe belts. But even if I remove all the pattern Judges you still have 20% of hardtops (regular GTO's and non pattern judges) versus only 9% of convertibles. This is quite surprising since convertibles typically had more options than hardtops. These numbers are the total of a few options. There are three possible deluxe belt choices... Deluxe belts with no shoulder belts (cvt only), deluxe belts with front shoulder belt or deluxe belts with both frt & rr shoulder (both offered on both hardtops and convertibles).

Another tidbit is of the 400 or so convertibles in the listing a total 27 had some form of shoulder belts. 3 had non deluxe shoulder belts (front only), 22 had deluxe front shoulder belts and 2 had front and rear deluxe shoulder belts. (you couldn't order non-deluxe front and rear shoulder belts on ragtops or hardtops).

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #56  
Old 06-15-2021, 03:09 PM
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Pattern Judges represent 22.6 of all Judges in the listing. If this is representative it would indicate there were about 1,500 pattern Judges. CR is the color of 67% of all the Judges in the listing, if you discount the pattern cars then 57% of the remaining Judges (non-pattern) were CR. Perhaps CR Judges have a higher survival rate than non-CR? If so then there would have been less than 1,500 pattern cars built.

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #57  
Old 06-15-2021, 03:18 PM
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I did an audit of the 113 pattern cars to see if there could be judges that were not really built as pattern cars but coincidentally had the identical options of one of the 12 possible pattern option loads (3spd, 4spd, auto, each with or without AC and each with black or parchment buckets). I looked for cars out of the build date range and/or with a normal dealer order number, only one car appeared and it is clearly not really part of the initial pattern cars, just coincidentally ordered later on identically to one of the original patterns.

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #58  
Old 06-15-2021, 03:25 PM
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Just for S&G know the difference between a 69 T handle and later ?

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  #59  
Old 06-15-2021, 03:45 PM
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S&G?

I recall reading something about the form of the 4 being the triangular or the open style? I've also seen some that have a plug on the side for locking the handle in place better, I assume those are the over the counter style.

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #60  
Old 06-15-2021, 04:21 PM
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Were many aftermarket T-handles, many made by Hurst. Think Ford used the side set screw. Some were even felt.

Major problem with my 70 was hands sticking in sub zero weather (Indiana) and had some plastic ones made.

S&G may be interpreted as "for fun" the translation is not polite.

Are correct about the "4". .Sorry my 69 is a bit worn.
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