[60sstuff]

Nice ‘64 on auction #144081540994.

Very early build out of the Pontiac plant (08D).

V-1 = Grenadiar Red, White top, Red interior.

Lots of nice options.

Has the early design power steering unit.

Hope it finds a good home that keeps it Original.

[b-man]

Beautiful.

I hope it brings a good price, such a solid and original example.

[Tom Vaught]

I will do a search for the listing auction Classic Auto Showplace. Some of us would like to add any pictures of the car to our 64 Convertible information collection. Thanks again.

Tom V.

[b-man]

Auction link:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/14408154099...EAAOSwz1NgmYJx

Looks to be located in Michigan, would be a nice car to pick up for someone living locally. Nice unrestored low mileage cars like this ‘64 don’t come up for sale often.

[Tom Vaught]

Thanks B-Man.

Tom V.

[60sstuff]

I would love to see the PHS on this car.

Tons of options.

Automatic
Console
Convertible
Power Brakes
Power Steering
Padded dash
Tilt steering column
Two speed wiper / washers
Power Antenna
Outside remote mirror
Inside day/night mirror
Back up lamps
Custom wheel disc
White wall tires

And it has the Ivory shifter button.

Looks like a mirror on the RH sun visor.

I’m probably missing a few other options.

[Chris65LeMans]

Cool.

[John V.]

Very interesting.

In 30+ years of looking at '64 Pontiacs, I've never seen one with an August Time Built code on the Data Plate at either end of the Model Year.

Chris, you have better eyes than me, I couldn't read much from the Data Plate but the VIN 824P1191 would indicate a build at the very start of Final Assembly.

I don't see a Body No. next to the "PO" except for a possible "7" way to the right?

If so and assuming it was a regular production built to a Dealer Order, could mean this was the 7th Lemans Convertible for the '64 Model Year.

And very possible that the Body Assembly was produced by Fisher Body in August in advance of the start of 1964 regular production on September 3, 1963.

Would love to know the 5 Group codes from the Data Plate.

Your list of options should not include "Convertible" but should add the Deluxe Pushbutton AM Radio and the Custom Front Seat Belts with Retractors (the el cheapo winders used in '64).

Given the Visor Vanity Mirror, Remote Control O/S Mirror, and the Day/Night Inside Mirror, I'd bet the Mirror Group will show on the PHS record.

Given the Deluxe PB AM Radio, the B/U Lamps, and the 2 speed Wipers with Washers, I'd also bet the Basic Group will show on the PHS record.

While it does have the I/P Pad and the Custom Front Seat Belts with Retractors, the lack of evidence that it ever had Door Edge Guards means that it probably won't show the Protection Group on the PHS though conceivably it could have had the Front & Rear Floor Mats, and the Spare Tire Cover as individual options (they were also part of the Protection Group).

Of course any number of the observed options might not be factory original.

Nothing unique about the early PS pump, only the pulley was changed at mid year. The pulley was added at final assembly to suit so

But the early 37A alternator used with PS was unique since Delco supplied the OE alternators complete with pulley. The early belt arrangement used alt 1100676 with the 2 groove pulley. With the change in belt arrangement at mid year, the 1100683 alt was used with or without PS. My early '64 should have the 1100676 but I've never found one within my budget. Would be cool if this Lemans retains the original.

[60sstuff]

I tried to clean up the Data Plate, but it’s still blurry.

Looks like,

08D
Style 64-2267 Body PO 7
Trim 218 Paint V-1
ACC 2P - 2T - 5Y

2P = Radio
2T = Power Antenna
5Y = ?

[John V.]

Thanks Chris for posting that.

Group 2, Code P has nothing to do with the Radio. I was able to establish this years ago and then came across a pic of an actual '64 Fisher Body Trim Manifest for a particular build where the codes and their "meaning" were spelled out on the printed form. Many '64s that I had earlier decoded proved that 2P was not for anything Radio related, GTOs that did NOT have a factory Radio option had the 2P code and many GTOs that DID have a factory Radio lacked the 2P code. Other evidence pointed to the 2P being connected to the Back Up Lamps option. Eventually the Fisher Trim Manifest solved the riddle.

2P was included on this particular build and the verbiage for it showed Back Up Lamps.

I provided the known 5 Group codes in my '64 KC/Balt decode article that was published in Smoke Signals about 10 years ago. I have continued to add to my knowledge base as time has gone by.

I do not have a Group 5, Code Y. I'm guessing this is actually 5W or 5V on the Data Plate.

Group 5, Code W would be the Custom Seat Belts with Retractors and I believe this was used all year at the Pontiac Plant (there were some variations in the 5 Group Codes Plant to Plant that I won't address here).

After December '63 builds, GM made Front Seat Belts standard content in passenger cars.

Base pricing was revised upward in January, an $11 increase to account for the belts which were the "Standard" style belts, not the Custom style belts.

The price of the Custom Seat Belts with Retractors option was reduced by $10.76 at the same time (reflecting the inclusion of the standard belts and the increased Base price).

The Sales Code 411 Standard Front Seat Belts option that had cost $10.76 thru Dec was deleted from the Order Form.

And the Sales Code 414 Seat Belt Delete option was added to the Order Form in Jan and when ordered, resulted in an $11 Credit on the Window Sticker. It was reflected on the Pontiac Data Plate as Group 5, Code O (letter oh).

After Dec, the Pontiac Plant used Group 5, Code Z on the Data Plate for any Tempest that included the standard content Seat Belts. This was unusual, Fisher ordinarily only coded changes to the standard content on the Data Plate. But for some reason, even though the Standard Belts were now standard content, Fisher chose to code 5Z on the Data Plate.

This was only true at the Pontiac Plant, KC stopped showing a code for the Standard Belts after Dec.

This meant that after Dec, ALL Tempests built at the Pontiac Plant would show either 5Z, 5W, or 5O but only one of these codes as they were mutually exclusive.

Prior to Jan, the 5O was not used as the Seat Belt Delete was not yet an option.

And as mentioned, the 5W was used for the Custom Front Seat Belts with Retractors option all year. This option was fairly often ordered even prior to Jan as these Seat Belts were part of the Protection Group option.

But the Sales Code 411 Standard Front Seat Belts were almost never ordered when they were optional prior to Jan.

Consequently I have been unable to confirm the 5 Group code for them that Fisher was using prior to Jan.

On my decode list I have noted that the pre Jan code might be Group 5, Code V. I don't recall if I have ever seen this code personally or if a fellow hobbyist claimed to see it. My suspicion is that the "V" could have been a misread of a "W".

If so, the Pontiac Plant may have been using Group 5, Code Z for the Standard Belts option both prior to Jan and after when these belts became standard content.

Since this Lemans seems to have the Custom Belts (metal buckles in evidence), I suspect what you are seeing on the Data Plate is 5W.

It could possibly be 5V.

Either one could be interpreted as 5Y in a blurry photo.

But I would sure love to have a CLEAR pic of the Data Plate along with the PHS to confirm the actual code on the Data Plate.

Long explanation posted in part in the event that somebody has an early build with the Sales Code 411 Standard Belts that could help me confirm the associated 5 Group Code.

One last thing I forgot to mention in my first post.

Pictures show dual exhaust. IIRC, this was an available option with the 2 bbl 326 but was standard with the 4 bbl 326 (326 HO in the lit although it wasn't all that HO compared to how Pontiac typically equipped an HO engine).

Would be a ton more interesting if it is a 4 bbl though as the 4 bbl 326 option was very rare compared even to the GTO.

Either way, I would LOVE to have this Lemans as a companion to my '64 GTO convertible. I think I should start a Go Fund Me page!

[60sstuff]

John,

Thanks for the “2P” code reminder, which is back up lamps.
I referred to the wrong publication which says radio, my fault.

Here is a small birth certificate from my early 1965 showing the 5 groups.
This car is a BAL build and therefore has no ACC codes on the Data plate.

Chris

[Andre]

It could not break 18,500 on the first time it went on ebay. I'm not sure what the right number is for that car.

[rohrt]

Beautiful car.

[60sstuff]

The trunk compartment.

Looks like it’s been painted over the crusty surface, but I don’t see any large holes.

I’ve never seen a jacking instruction decal/sticker like that and placed where it is.
Maybe a “Very Early” production location ?

It’s hard to tell if the paint on this car is Original, but if it is, it would be a True Survivor.

[60sstuff]

Originally Posted by Andre

It could not break 18,500 on the first time it went on ebay. I'm not sure what the right number is for that car.

I think they are looking for $23,000 on this car.

[60sstuff]

Here ya go.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 60sstuff

The trunk compartment.

Looks like it’s been painted over the crusty surface, but I don’t see any large holes.

I’ve never seen a jacking instruction decal/sticker like that and placed where it is.
Maybe a “Very Early” production location ?

It’s hard to tell if the paint on this car is Original, but if it is, it would be a True Survivor.

My understanding was that it was always on the trunk lid. Left side or Right side.

Tom V.

[John V.]

Chris, that 5V code is very interesting. Wish the PHS was available. I'm not curious enough to buy a copy but would love to see if the 5V is connected to the Custom Seat Belts or something else, or even the Standard Seat Belts.

Can't rule out a typo or a code change later on.

But never before seen a 5V on a '64 Data Plate from Pontiac (or Kansas City). As posted earlier, I did mention the possibility of the 5V being used for the Standard Seat Belts early year, but I think that was reported to me, not something I was able to confirm by evidence I have seen myself.

As far as the Jack Instruction label, perhaps that was a very early build placement at the Pontiac Plant.

Looks to me that there may have been some respraying on the trunk interior and over some corrosion at that. A close up look at the label might establish originality. I believe the common repro label was poorly done and would be obvious. Perhaps even some residue remains on the decklid?

It certainly looks like the early style label, not the larger one that came into use at mid year. But I think only the early label is reproduced so doesn't tell me much.

I don't know where they were placed in '63. I assumed it was also on the decklid which I would think makes the placement on this one strange at the very least. But that is a very small quibble. And since it looks like there may be a bit of paint overspray on it, I'm betting it is where the factory put it originally.

I still think it would be a cool car to have. I really thought the reserve was going to be $20k so was surprised it didn't sell.

I'm also thinking that if the dealer was out of it, the family might take $20k. I think that would be the right price for it. Not that it matters, I don't have the green light to make any offer for it.