[ponjohn]

question:

As far as a bare head - are the 87cc heads available bare? Can you order the 310 cfm porting but bare? I looked but didn't see a definitive answer?

Is everyone under the impression that the porting is cnc?

john

[Glenn]

I believe that you can....I think Gregg, my head guy has a set that he's doing for another customer. I know that he has two other sets besides mine that he's doing work on. I'm not sure of the size. Call or email Jeff Kauffman, that is probably a message he will return.

[Ron H]

I never called you a liar. I am very a useful person so I will take your TOOL remark as a compliment.
You again are suggesting that because your flow numbers did not match theirs that all their heads will be flawed and because they said you don't race flow benches that they give bad customer service.
I simply presented my findings to state mine are not flawed and I have had good dealings with them.
I did not say you were a liar because you presented your findings. But it is known that no benches flow the same.
It's funny you would try and call me a spokes person for them or something.
My reply to Play was to him. It had nothing to do with you. He brought false info from the other thread here.

[Glenn]

Ron H

Since you used slander in my thread (instead in the MR-1 thread) I got the impression that was directed at me also. My heads were flawed, but fortunately not seriously, as alleged with the MR-1 block. Having to have had my valve redone and the ports cleaned up to meet advertised specs are flaws, again fortunately minor, but flaws that cost me additional money to repair.

Sure, each flow bench flow slightly different, within 2% plus or minus. Again, KRE didn't flow my heads ever so they can't say with any certainty what they flowed, yet they totally dismiss my concerns with a "kiss-off and don't bother me" attitude.

[Brett_ty]

Originally Posted by Glenn

I believe that you can....I think Gregg, my head guy has a set that he's doing for another customer. I know that he has two other sets besides mine that he's doing work on. I'm not sure of the size. Call or email Jeff Kauffman, that is probably a message he will return.

"are the 87cc heads available bare? Can you order the 310 cfm porting but bare?"

Yes, I am one of the other customer's that Glenn is referring to, and Gregg at Portflow Development is the guy doing the headwork. I took a different approach with my engine. As I had talked to other that had thier pontiac engines built/worked on by Gregg and they all had nothing but positive things to say about Gregg and the work performed/executed, I called Gregg up and told him what the end result of what I was looking for in my engine (very streetable high torque, High HP engine, 90% street, 10% strip using the lower end that was already there), what my budget was and let him decide how to put it together. He reccomended KRE because of the ability to do more CNC porting work with the material provided then Edelbrock.

I for one am very intrested in this thread and appluad Glenn for bringing HIS issue and experience up as a data point for the rest of us to file the information away so that we consumers can make a more informed decision. I also belive that Glenn has been as objective/balanced as he can be given some of the comments and assumptions thrown his way.
His heads may be an outlier in the spectrum of "KRE" head issues but I would rather know that the possibility of something like this exists with a producer so that I can either "accept risk" or "mitigate risk" through the use of controls placed on the purchase agreement.

Thanks Glenn

[PLAY400]

Originally Posted by Ron H

It's amazing that you would come to this conclusion. NO WHERE IS IT PROVEN OR CLOSE TO FACTUAL THAT THEY RESOLD A DEFECTIVE PART. There is 2 sides to every story. One you have not heard any of.

You are now slandering a company and to what benefit?

You need to reread the thread so you can get the actual facts from it and not a bunch of BS you decided you wanted to read.

Ron 1 has to make their own desision based on what is available or presented. Has to be a ligitimate issue cause Cass hasn't locked or deleted it. Do you have shares or any other interest in KRE???

When it is posted that KRE would accept the block as a return only if they could resell it is good enough reason for me to stay away. I'm too far away to have any oppertunity of making it right. It's my $$$ and I have decided from what I read that these fellows got in over their head because they assumed their products were being made to spec and it seems they did not do any quality control.

Other that others posting their good experiences I seen nothing that would indicate KRE makes good on major errors and I do not see myself buying directly from them in the future. Worked too hard for my $$$. Alan

[Ron H]

I have no vested interest in KRE.
You are talking about 2 different blocks. One that KRE accepted as returned at an event that someone stated they resold. Which there is no proof of.
The other which is the block in question which prompted the thread. KRE would not accept back for their reasons and thus has caused the MR-1 thread.
This thread, Glenn's , is about heads he received that he felt are not up to par with the quality he expected.
2 completely different subjects both hinging on quality control and customer relations.
You can make your decisions based on whatever you please. But try and be sure to be accurate as to what you are saying when posting. You assumed something and confused a different thread and posted that confusion and assumption on this one.

[wh33lman]

Originally Posted by Ron H

I am doing just that Brian. I will dyno my car tomorrow and show the results of the direct head swap with no other changes on the same machine I used last month in my sig. I did a pull on Saturday but there was shake problems and my crank pulley broke. I showed 430 RWHP with the cut outs closed.
Tomorrow I hope to see 450 RWHP with everything the same as my 6x combo. Then swap to 1.65 rockers and see the change from there. I am sure I can make 500 RWHP with my combo after a cam swap over the winter. With 18% loss that is 610 Flywheel HP. Right about where a set of 310 cfm flowing heads should be.
My 6x-4 heads were ported based on the dims from a Dave Bischop 6x head that has 245 cfm @ .500 lift. They dynoed at 375 RWHP.

Glenn, I understand that the bench you used to test did not show the same numbers as KRE's does. But this has been gone through many times. Every bench is different. I thought about having mine flowed when I first read your post. But the result would have been different so why bother. I decided to go from the performance direction to show results. If I make x amount of power they have to flow x amount give or take a bit.

What happened with the head swap dyno test? You were swapping out a 375RWHP set of 6x-4 245 cfm heads for KRE 87cc 310 cfm heads, right?

Performance and customer service are important to me since I would be ordering from outside of US. I'm just in Toronto, but the risk of having to return heads that did not measure up to expectations is enough to convince me to go with E-heads and new headers.

This canned response about how every flow bench is different does not hold up when every other bench seems to flow less than Kaufmanns.

I'm still hanging in for some more encouraging reports about KRE heads from buyers.

[Ron H]

My dyno guy double booked me. I did go last week for the test but broke my crank pulley. Then there was issues with his machine. On a bad pull it showed 430 RWHP. This is less than actual I am sure and so was the dyno operator as there was problems with sahke. Also I hadn't uncapped my exhaust yet which I did for the 375 6x head tests. I hope to get in there tomorrow but i haven't been able to set a time yet. I will start a thred on the results once I have them.

[ponjohn]

I had to run up to my machinst to drop off some crates I had of his.

I spoke to him about Glenn's experience. He told me in the year since he did my engine he has done 2-3 engines with the KRE d-ports. He's going to look up the dyno figures for me.

his take is this: production assmbled, ready to run heads are going to have problems no matter how you slice it. All -NO, some-YES. He deals with many many differnt customers with many different goals. He uses, AFR, E-head, GM Motorports etc etc.

He has seen AFR heads come in with plain "crap" valve jobs, some were fine to use. The common factor is they were assmbled in production enviroment. He now reccomends to buy them bare and allow him to do the assembly and porting.

Again his take- If you pay for the upgraded parts and flow sheets you'll probably be ok. He has seen less issues with reported flow numbers on heads that were bought with a port job. The unported head he has seen some descrepancies because of the nature of casting in general.

Another strong suggestion from him- put the head in the heat treat chamber for at least to heat cycles to 200*f (alum heads). He has had more than a few customers bring engines back to freshened after one season and the valves are recessed and the valve job has gone to crap. The heat cycle in the chamber reduces this by conditioning the head to the same temp fluctuation as seen running.

Not to belittle Glenn's experince BUT to just add another person's take on this part of the industry. It appears it is more common than reported.

john

[dammen8]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

for at least to heat cycles to 200*f

Wow I guess you are not perfect either :rolleyes:

I guess this just goes to show anyone can make a error:p

Or should I just say LMAO?

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by dammen8

Wow I guess you are not perfect either :rolleyes:

I guess this just goes to show anyone can make a error:p

Or should I just say LMAO?

WTF are you talking about?

I'm not eating humble pie here, I still don't think it was handled in the correct manner and that has been my beef with this thread and the mr1 thread all along.

If you f-ing read what I wrote it is also indicating that this not an isolated incident with just one mfr. It appears to be very common. Can you say over reaction?

I'm also idicating that it is not a flaw of the design of the head but -again across the board you get sh!t valve jobs on prepared heads- is it right NO - does it happen YES>

[wh33lman]

Let's just stick to the issue and leave the bickering out of the thread.

We are trying to find out exactly what you get for your $$ when buying KRE heads.

If they are not delivering heads compliant with their advertised flow rates, I want to know about it.
If additional head work is required to clean up heads, or if a lot of port/gasket matching work is required to reach those rates, we should be so informed when purchasing.

Customer service is a completely seperate issue for those who are considering a purchase. (sorry Glenn) If they are not delivering a quality product, who wants it anyways.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by wh33lman

Let's just stick to the issue and leave the bickering out of the thread.

We are trying to find out exactly what you get for your $$ when buying KRE heads.

If they are not delivering heads compliant with their advertised flow rates, I want to know about it.
If additional head work is required to clean up heads, or if a lot of port/gasket matching work is required to reach those rates, we should be so informed when purchasing.

Customer service is a completely seperate issue for those who are considering a purchase. (sorry Glenn) If they are not delivering a quality product, who wants it anyways.

I agree 100% - didn't mean to regurgitate this thread again. My only intention was to educate myself by speaking to a local guy I had do my stuff and that I trust. Don;t spin this into to saying I mistrust everbody else.

It was surprised to find out that all "production" head companies have these issues.

Is anybody else surprised?
John

[Ron H]

I know of 2 people who had issues with AFR heads. One my brother had a valve spring break in 2 months of use and took down his whole engine. Racing part, no warranty.
One guy lives here, they had to redo the valve job and seals as they were not up to his engine builders specs. He payed 175.00 extra for that...

[Region Warrior]

If you pay for heads machined, assembled, ready to install, there sould be no reason what so ever to have them redone.
I exchanged one set of E-heads for this very reason.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by ponchoshop

If you pay for heads machined, assembled, ready to install, there sould be no reason what so ever to have them redone.
I exchanged one set of E-heads for this very reason.

Who did you buy them from?

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"But it is known that no benches flow the same. "

I have quite a few years of experience in flow benches and post regularly on the internet "flow bench site".

Many times I have seen multiple benches have the same reading for a given orifice. Rarely, if ever, have I seen two benches that were identical on all of the ranges. Some are close at the bottom end and some are close at the top end.

The Kauffmans use a Pitot bench which is different from a SF "orifice" type bench. Typically the pitot benches do not read the same as a SF bench. If you are comparing orifice type benches you might see some small cfm differences. A Pitot bench might be extremely accurate at the top end of a flow range like .600 or .700 lift and "off" at the middle or on the bottom numbers. Rarely are they "spot on" on all the points.

If you are racing flow benches would you like it better if the low flow numbers were off or the high flow numbers were off? Most would pick the high flow answer.

Deal is a smart racer will look at the whole curve for the total area under the curve. Hard to do that if one part of the curve is incorrect. Now if you are just bragging about your 330 cfm heads vs someone's 300 heads then it makes little real difference.

Hope this helps.

Tom V.

[ponjohn]

Tom-

In speaking with my guy today he also confirms that many heads do not flow the same at his shop. Some might be high some might be low. He sees this trend in either production bolt on heads and custom ported.

John

[gearbanger]

For what is worth, I took the heads out of the box and put them on my motor and ran 113 in quarter. It makes so much torque that I can't really give it much throttle in 1st gear, so my 60 ft was only 2.20 on 295 nitto 555 street tires. But once I am able to get into it, it ran 8.30 in the 1/8 and 12.70 in the quarter, that is full street trim. Through the pipes and 1-5/8" headers, sway bar hooked up, about 3770 with me in it, and rowing a 5-speed. And that was only one run. I know there is alot more in it, if I just knew how to drive :)

I couldn't be happier with my heads. They are the 310s.