[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by U47

GM stopped making them that's what happens. Not everyone tossed either type of trans. I have a perfectly healthy 63 Catalina that has it's original Roto and it works very well. Most were not converted to stick shift. In the late 60's and early 70's most of the converted ones were converted to T-400. Now there has been quite a few going to 200R4 or 7004r.

They cant be drag racing or street racing them too hard with a 200R4 & 700R4.
The Torque of a 389, 400, 421, 428 , &455 will tear them up bad.
A hot small block Chevy in a Corvette tears them up unless the best parts are used.
Still cross your fingers.

Takes a 1987 Buick Grand National core GNX.

5-PINION NOS GM MADE IN OHIO 4L65E Front planet set & Rear reaction set.
I bought one of the last NOS Ohio 2005 run 4L65E 5-pinion planets.
In.my 1987 C4 700R4 Vette convertible now.
Made in Mexico and China current are exoding on dragstrips nationwide

[wheneaglesfly]

I have reading online and researching on my own U47 & Jack Gifford.
You guys have Captivated my Intrest in the Early Hydramstics, Rotohydratic 10, & Super Hydramatic 315 Dual Coupling Pontiac - Oldsmobile Jetaway.

It seems to me the Pontiac Super Hydramatic 315 is the Best choice to work with and rebuild for Reuse.
I have my 1964 Pontiac SuperHydro 315 Code PBS From a Bonneville -Super Star Chief.
I am going to keep it.
I have Plenty of Pontiac Turbo 400's stock plied away to Drag Race on.
My 1963 Grand Prix is my Poncho Heavy Metal Street Toy.
I love Blowing away Tuner cars & BMW.
I see them and the Race Is on.

[wheneaglesfly]

Just a Side note of my own....
With modern Drag Race Torque converters 10-9-8-7 inches in diameter there is not really much torque multiplication taking place within the torque converter.
Relying upon the High RPM Inertia like a Stick Shift car has present then released.
BAMMMM Against 4.10-5.57 :1 Ring and Pinion gearsets.

Stator is present but its really a Fluid coupling at 5,000-10,000Rpms.

I have prior experience with 1400 HP 8-second drag cars I turned wrenches on in the pits at tracks and in the garages at night.

[U47]

Originally Posted by wheneaglesfly

I have reading online and researching on my own U47 & Jack Gifford.
You guys have Captivated my Intrest in the Early Hydramstics, Rotohydratic 10, & Super Hydramatic 315 Dual Coupling Pontiac - Oldsmobile Jetaway.

It seems to me the Pontiac Super Hydramatic 315 is the Best choice to work with and rebuild for Reuse.
I have my 1964 Pontiac SuperHydro 315 Code PBS From a Bonneville -Super Star Chief.
I am going to keep it.
I have Plenty of Pontiac Turbo 400's stock plied away to Drag Race on.
My 1963 Grand Prix is my Poncho Heavy Metal Street Toy.
I love Blowing away Tuner cars & BMW.
I see them and the Race Is on.

Controlled Coupling HydraMatic is really the correct term for the Dual coupling HydraMatic. Cadillac's term for this trans is called 315 or P315 HydraMatic. Pontiac's name for the very same trans is called Super HydraMatic. Oldsmobile's term for the very same transmission is Jetaway HydraMatic ( not to be confused with the ST300 automatic which was also called Jetaway HydraMatic).

In 1959 my Dad ordered out of the L.A. zone office a SO ( special order ) 59 Catalina. Besides special paint and a Bonneville interior, the car came with a 420A 389 Tri-Power engine with a solid lifter cam in the trunk, A heavy duty Super HydraMatic which has the external oil that goes in front of the radiator, and a 3.08 Safety Track with a 3.90 and 4.10 also in the trunk. These S/O cars that had the 420"A" engines were all built in Michigan in the Pontiac tool room so the car was railed out to the west coast. Normally a car ordered out of a dealership in the L.A. area would have been built in the Southgate plant in L.A. county like my 62 and 63 Catalina's.
This car raced in A/S automatic when new and by 1961 we burnt a exhaust valve and the heads were replace with big valve heads which made the car at 3,900lbs. a consistent 13.90's @ 100-102mph at sea level. When the car was new a friend of my Dads who was a HydraMatic expert pulled the trans down to change line pressure, and to modify the secondary fluid coupling to drain and refill twice as fast as stock, stock is four tenths of a second. There was a governor modification and something else also that I can't remember. In 1965 I was 14 years old and that was the year I got my IHRA license as I was to drive the car. By that time the car was running in F/SA. At 16 in 1967 the car was also my daily driver as well. When I sold the car in January 1969 it had roughly 96,000 miles and would still turn it's same quarter mile times. The car was sometimes a week end warrior and sometimes a Wednesday grudge night participant plus some street racing which I might add paid far better than organized racing. Aside from being torn down for modification when new the trans was never apart again.

I have a very good friend who has a 66 GTO that has a fuel injected 428 ( made by himself) that puts out roughly 750HP and a uses a 2004R that runs 10's. and with all the Art Carr parts in it seems to hold up. This car was a Hot Rod magazine cover car years ago.

[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by U47

Controlled Coupling HydraMatic is really the correct term for the Dual coupling HydraMatic. Cadillac's term for this trans is called 315 or P315 HydraMatic. Pontiac's name for the very same trans is called Super HydraMatic. Oldsmobile's term for the very same transmission is Jetaway HydraMatic ( not to be confused with the ST300 automatic which was also called Jetaway HydraMatic).

In 1959 my Dad ordered out of the L.A. zone office a SO ( special order ) 59 Catalina. Besides special paint and a Bonneville interior, the car came with a 420A 389 Tri-Power engine with a solid lifter cam in the trunk, A heavy duty Super HydraMatic which has the external oil that goes in front of the radiator, and a 3.08 Safety Track with a 3.90 and 4.10 also in the trunk. These S/O cars that had the 420"A" engines were all built in Michigan in the Pontiac tool room so the car was railed out to the west coast. Normally a car ordered out of a dealership in the L.A. area would have been built in the Southgate plant in L.A. county like my 62 and 63 Catalina's.
This car raced in A/S automatic when new and by 1961 we burnt a exhaust valve and the heads were replace with big valve heads which made the car at 3,900lbs. a consistent 13.90's @ 100-102mph at sea level. When the car was new a friend of my Dads who was a HydraMatic expert pulled the trans down to change line pressure, and to modify the secondary fluid coupling to drain and refill twice as fast as stock, stock is four tenths of a second. There was a governor modification and something else also that I can't remember. In 1965 I was 14 years old and that was the year I got my IHRA license as I was to drive the car. By that time the car was running in F/SA. At 16 in 1967 the car was also my daily driver as well. When I sold the car in January 1969 it had roughly 96,000 miles and would still turn it's same quarter mile times. The car was sometimes a week end warrior and sometimes a Wednesday grudge night participant plus some street racing which I might add paid far better than organized racing. Aside from being torn down for modification when new the trans was never apart again.

I have a very good friend who has a 66 GTO that has a fuel injected 428 ( made by himself) that puts out roughly 750HP and a uses a 2004R that runs 10's. and with all the Art Carr parts in it seems to hold up. This car was a Hot Rod magazine cover car years ago.

I just Love The Pontiac Motors Legacy.
It has been about Racing Always .
Especially Street Racing.
I am 46 Years old now.
I recall back in 1976 I spotted a brand new all White Trans Am 455.
I was In Love then.


My Father had a 1959 Catalina 389 4bbl Super Hydramatic Trans.

[wheneaglesfly]

Yes you can custom build a 200R4.
Its very Expensive.
I am a Mechanic . Married. Kids.
Looking For Best Bang for the Dollar value.
I Love Pontiac Nostalgia Technology also.

[alleyCat]

Very very interesting thread. I have a 1961 Bonneville Safari that has lost its 389 and hydro which was replaced with a 69 Pontiac 350 and T400 years before I got it.With a 2:87 rear it is not exactly a snappy performer . Its a heavy car but now I know why the original engine and hydramatic would have been much better choice. It could really use that granny gear to start it out.

[U47]

Originally Posted by alleyCat

Very very interesting thread. I have a 1961 Bonneville Safari that has lost its 389 and hydro which was replaced with a 69 Pontiac 350 and T400 years before I got it.With a 2:87 rear it is not exactly a snappy performer . Its a heavy car but now I know why the original engine and hydramatic would have been much better choice. It could really use that granny gear to start it out.

Yes back then you could have a very low rear end, however even if you had a 2.87 or a 3.08 that would be fine with Controlled Couplings 3.97 first gear and 2.55 second. You could even run a 2.56 and get out of the hole smoking the tires and still have a great fwy gearing.

[alleyCat]

The only way this thing would smoke a tire is if I put lighter fluid on it. I wish it still had its original engine and trans. May have to look into a different rear gear set. It just can get out of its own way. I am sure its great on the highway but away from a stop light its just a complete tank. I bet it would smoke the tires for a block with a hydro and even a low horse 389. Ticks me off someone took the easy way out.

[U47]

Originally Posted by alleyCat

The only way this thing would smoke a tire is if I put lighter fluid on it. I wish it still had its original engine and trans. May have to look into a different rear gear set. It just can get out of its own way. I am sure its great on the highway but away from a stop light its just a complete tank. I bet it would smoke the tires for a block with a hydro and even a low horse 389. Ticks me off someone took the easy way out.

They probably just needed a reliable running car.
In todays world the approach is different. Build a 455 or a 400 and use a 200R4 to achieve what Pontiac did those years ago.

[Roadk01]

Originally Posted by U47

Confusing to many by it's many names; Hydra-Matic division which built the trans calls it P 315 controlled coupling Hydra-Matic, Cadillac calls it 315 Hydra-Matic, Olds Calls it Jetaway HydraMatic ( and also calls the 1964 and beyond ST300 in the F-85 & Cutlass Jetaway ) , Pontiac calls it first StratoFlight HydraMatic-Later, Super HydraMatic.

HydraMatic division also designed and built Roto HydraMatic. Roto is also a controlled coupling HydraMatic, and is the only automatic trans to have a fluid coupling and a fixed position stator, it is the only automatic that when in second gear(third range) is in complete mechanical connection from the engine to the drive shaft along with the invention of the lock up torque converter by Packard in the UltraMatic in 1949. Roto could have been one of the best automatic's for drag racing had it been for two things. 1. gear spacing between ratio's and 2. heavier duty components. HydraMatic Division calls it a four range three speed due to torque multiplication in first gear of 3.50 to 1- later through first gear at 2.93 to 1, 2nd at 1.56 and third 1 to 1. this is why it's called a three speed with four ranges. The trans has less parts than Super HydraMatic so it's complexity is less in that sense, but is more complex in it's operational duties in which the small fluid coupling like in Super HydraMatic takes the place of the conventional forward clutch, which Roto does also, it also takes on the duties of the large fluid coupling in the engine - transmission connection. Because Roto's small fluid coupling (same size as Supers front coupling) is so small (8")there is a need for a flywheel instead of a flexplate. One other minor drawback to Roto is because the coupling when filled ( 1st and 3rd) has very high pressures and is prone to leaks.
Both are great transmissions when treated with respect and understanding, and are a marvel of engineers ingenuity.

Don

Hi Don, I have a 59 Catalina with a hydra-matic and was wondering if you knew the fluid capacity of this transmission. Also I don’t see a drain plug anywhere. Do I have to remove the filler connection to drain the transmission?

Thanks!

[WQ59B]

Originally Posted by U47

stevep, Information I get even back to original HydraMatic ("D" type) was that Oldsmobile worked with Detroit Transmission, but even so, original HydraMatic was also a Detroit Transmission design. Olds lent engineers and requirement perimeters to Detroit transmission, later to become HydraMatic Division, still later GM Powertrain Division.

The 'ground zero' of the HydraMatic's development started at Cadillac Engineering in '32. By March of '33, progress was so that Cadillac elevated Earl Thompson [who designed the Syncho-Mesh manual] to a new internal department concentrating solely on 'shiftless drive'. By '34, Cadillac had a functioning step-ratio gearbox that shifted under full torque.

It was then that the project moved over to GM Central Research, where deveolpment continued until pilot units were built and handled over to Olds for field-testing. Olds was permitted to offer it in production 1 year before Cadillac (in '40) in case there was any significant issues.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Roadk01

Hi Don, I have a 59 Catalina with a hydra-matic and was wondering if you knew the fluid capacity of this transmission. Also I don’t see a drain plug anywhere. Do I have to remove the filler connection to drain the transmission?

Thanks!

There is a drain plug on the rear of the pan and you have to remove the front dust cover to access the coupling (converter) drain plug.

[U47]

The drain for Super HydraMatic and Roto HydraMatic is the dip stick tube itself. Remove the tube after pulling the dip stick first. All 59 Pontiac HydraMatics use the model 315 dual coupling HydraMatic or as Pontiac calls it- Super HydraMatic.

Super HydraMatic when completely full is approximately 10-1/2 quarts.
When doing service drain hex pipe plug from torus cover, then remover dip stick tube. When buttoning up start with 8-1/2 quarts.
Set selector lever in Park position and apply handbrake. Run engine at speed equivalent to 20mph to fill torus for 1-1/2 minutes. Reduce engine to idle. with trans fluid up to 150 degrees add fluid up to the full mark.