[cgeise]

Originally Posted by Wareagle

All I want to know is how your Twin Turbo Real live Pontiac powered GTO is running and will you get it up to Mission Raceway soon

All back together and will be at the Division race come June

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by David Holmberg

Milt that was great! But you should have asked Penny.

On other sites they would have posted a picture of Penny in a bikini (I don't think nudes exist) to go with that. Just sayin'....

And Milt...BAZINGA!

[Motor Daddy]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

If yes, ask "are you positive?"

Good one, HIS!

[LMSRACER]

Guys,
I first got involved with coatings in the world of competitive circle track racing. In 1992 we were using coatings for manual transmission gears, ring & pinions, windage trays, piston skirts, combustion chambers, piston tops, flat tappet camshafts and of course headers.

We used Polydyne Coatings and Jet Hot at that time and we now use Calico Coatings and Airborne Coatings.

Here's what I can tell you guys for a FACT. It reduced oil temperatures and it reduced flat tappet camshaft wear and ring & pinion wear.

Another situation that a lot of the guys here are familiar with is D-Port Cylinder Heads. If you have the exhaust ports coated on a D-Port Head, the engine paint on the outside of the exhaust ports doesn't burn off during the break-in period. Without the coatings the paint burns off immediately. The reason that I bring this up is how that relates to head gasket failure between cylinders 3 & 5 and 4 & 6 and how the coatings in the exhaust ports and combustion chambers can help to reduce this as a problem.

DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) Coatings have become the Norm for Wrist Pins in every Nascar Engine that I'm aware of. PPP out of Arden North Carolina Prepares the Wrist Pins and Calico Coatings Applies the Coatings for many of the Nascar Engine Builder Programs.

I can go on, but for me, they have a place and I firmly believe that. Increased Longevity of Powertrain Components and the POTENTIAL for Increased Power Output is all that I need.

It's my opinion,
Larry S.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

Guys,
I first got involved with coatings in the world of competitive circle track racing. In 1992 we were using coatings for manual transmission gears, ring & pinions, windage trays, piston skirts, combustion chambers, piston tops, flat tappet camshafts and of course headers.

We used Polydyne Coatings and Jet Hot at that time and we now use Calico Coatings and Airborne Coatings.

Here's what I can tell you guys for a FACT. It reduced oil temperatures and it reduced flat tappet camshaft wear and ring & pinion wear.

Another situation that a lot of the guys here are familiar with is D-Port Cylinder Heads. If you have the exhaust ports coated on a D-Port Head, the engine paint on the outside of the exhaust ports doesn't burn off during the break-in period. Without the coatings the paint burns off immediately. The reason that I bring this up is how that relates to head gasket failure between cylinders 3 & 5 and 4 & 6 and how the coatings in the exhaust ports and combustion chambers can help to reduce this as a problem.

DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) Coatings have become the Norm for Wrist Pins in every Nascar Engine that I'm aware of. PPP out of Arden North Carolina Prepares the Wrist Pins and Calico Coatings Applies the Coatings for many of the Nascar Engine Builder Programs.

I can go on, but for me, they have a place and I firmly believe that. Increased Longevity of Powertrain Components and the POTENTIAL for Increased Power Output is all that I need.

It's my opinion,
Larry S.

good post. I'm aware of and have used a few..calico micro blue etc...also agree on benifits other than hp. We're back to theory though on Hp gains

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

If yes, ask "are you positive?"

Beam me TF coatings up.

Coatings: who cares?!

My points on texture for wet-flow have gone completely crickets. As if....it works.

That's an even bigger open ended debate than the coatings. I know what I think , and I have specific reasons for that thinking. But im not getting into this one.

[LMSRACER]

Mike,
I'm not sure that just the addition of coatings would make a marked/measurable improvement in horsepower. The techniques that one can employ during the building process is where I believe the improvements are to be had.

For Example:
- Coated Piston Skirts and Piston Tops = Less Heat Absorbed by the Piston and Therefore a Lesser Degree of Thermal Expansion. This means that a tighter piston to wall clearance and tighter piston ring gaps could be used.
- Oil Shedding Coatings on Internal Rotating Components and Windage Trays = Less Drag/Parasitic Power Loss on the Crankshaft due to Windage.
- Coated Exhaust Components and Carburetor to Scoop Trays = Less Heat Absorbed in the Incoming Air Stream = Lower Inlet Temperatures and Greater Air Density.

These are just three examples and they are three that I'm sure that you're aware of. The Point is that the power increases aren't necessarily in direct relation to the coatings but instead indirectly related.

Question: Have you ever handled a Coated Ring Gear? Slippery Little Devil.

Larry S.

[LMSRACER]

Longevity....

Years ago when I Bracket Raced regularly, I would freshen my engine every year. What I found was that the coated piston tops could be cleaned in a parts washer with 0000 steel wool for three or four rebuilds before the coating would begin to wear through on the edges. The Pistons always looked like new once the carbon was removed.

I never replaced a piston unless the ring groove to ring clearance (Radial Clearance) got too great.

Larry S.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

Mike,
I'm not sure that just the addition of coatings would make a marked/measurable improvement in horsepower. The techniques that one can employ during the building process is where I believe the improvements are to be had.

For Example:
- Coated Piston Skirts and Piston Tops = Less Heat Absorbed by the Piston and Therefore a Lesser Degree of Thermal Expansion. This means that a tighter piston to wall clearance and tighter piston ring gaps could be used.
- Oil Shedding Coatings on Internal Rotating Components and Windage Trays = Less Drag/Parasitic Power Loss on the Crankshaft due to Windage.
- Coated Exhaust Components and Carburetor to Scoop Trays = Less Heat Absorbed in the Incoming Air Stream = Lower Inlet Temperatures and Greater Air Density.

These are just three examples and they are three that I'm sure that you're aware of. The Point is that the power increases aren't necessarily in direct relation to the coatings but instead indirectly related.

Question: Have you ever handled a Coated Ring Gear? Slippery Little Devil.

Larry S.

For what its worth...I employ a few of the following on the ole fireturd, replies in order of points.
1. I run a fairly tight piston to wall. And a tightish gap on the top ring. The second well lets just say its BIG. I've repeatedly asked very informed guys that sell and recommend piston coatings about them and the repeated answer I get is Nah Not NA and not unless the skirt clearance needs tightened. By tightening the skirt with a coating the clearance at the ring land is increased. A push. The old pistons are going right back in. Coating the piston would likely not effect end gaps. If you coated the rings....MAYBE. I DOUBT IT.
2. I've got special finishes and coatings in several places on the rotating assembly. Are they worth hp? Not that I can measure.
3. I use coated, Headers, And air pan to help control intake temp so I agree with point 3. They claim the header coating is 10hp(no way by itself) Sure is nice not getting burned by the headers. I cant get anyone to back up my intake thermal coating theory so I won't say that it will work But has promise........I'm Not he guy to state Ideas as facts until they are facts.

The point of contention is Number 1 for this discussion. NO EXTRA (measurable)HP FROM THE COATING. period. You might get Something you can measure from 2 and 3. 3 being the most likely.

I'm not nearly as inexperienced at all of this as you may think. YES i've held coated needle, Ball, taper, slider bearings as well as ring and pinion and other gear sets. Many are my parts! Come on man I'm not talking about something I did not research a while ago.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

Longevity....

Years ago when I Bracket Raced regularly, I would freshen my engine every year. What I found was that the coated piston tops could be cleaned in a parts washer with 0000 steel wool for three or four rebuilds before the coating would begin to wear through on the edges. The Pistons always looked like new once the carbon was removed.

I never replaced a piston unless the ring groove to ring clearance (Radial Clearance) got too great.

Larry S.

How about if a skirt collapsed? You would only have to replace a piston for the same reasons the rest of us would....just sayin. I'm glad your happy with the coatings, After my skirt clearance wears....I'll try some

[David Holmberg]

NASCAR spends thousands to find half a horsepower. Also, and much more importantly they demand durability at almost any cost.

As such, I 100% agree that coatings can protect parts and promote durability. Do they help with hp, probably but to a degree that most of us wouldn't find the cost to benefit ratio appealing. The thermal barriers would probably help in a drag racing program, but a street car or road racing car would have heat soak issues after a while. The coatings only slow down the thermal transfer, they don't stop it.

My take, do it help the part last longer, if there is a power increase that's icing on the cake.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by David Holmberg

NASCAR spends thousands to find half a horsepower. Also, and much more importantly they demand durability at almost any cost.

As such, I 100% agree that coatings can protect parts and promote durability. Do they help with hp, probably but to a degree that most of us wouldn't find the cost to benefit ratio appealing. The thermal barriers would probably help in a drag racing program, but a street car or road racing car would have heat soak issues after a while. The coatings only slow down the thermal transfer, they don't stop it.

My take, do it help the part last longer, if there is a power increase that's icing on the cake.

WINNER!

[Motor Daddy]

Originally Posted by mike leech

WINNER!

I agree.

[miltmilton]

Originally Posted by motor-daddy

Are you Professor Proton?

No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn the other night.

milt

[miltmilton]

[QUOTE=Half-Inch Stud;5113906]If yes, ask "are you positive?"

If I were Dr. Proton, I'd would be "positive". I was raised to find the best things in life and stay away from being "negative". I still can't figure out why I always get into trouble with some folks. Is it because opposites attract each other? But then again, if I were to be negative, I would be well grounded.

milt

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by miltmilton

No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn the other night.

milt

nice!