[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by grivera

I didn’t twist your words, it’s what you posted. Perhaps it’s not what you intended to convey but you wrote you read it in the book so decided not to do it. Your post didn’t give credit to those who already informed you it was ill advised.

You don't have to make excuses when you're breaking my balls.

If you want credit get a credit card.

I won't argue with semantics, let's get back on track, please.

[grivera]

You really are hilarious - I don’t want credit for it since I didn’t say it, just pointed out you should acknowledge those who did. That aside, good luck.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes Reply:

Only that what was said is confirmed, please don't twist my words.

Mikes reply:

It is best to give a reason when telling someone what to do, if there is one, I would never have guessed that the sand or the media would stick into the metal, especially glass, now that I know and I read it in a Pontiac book, that confirms what the forum said and allowed me to make an intelligent, informed decision on the course of action that I should take in this instance.

Like I have said before there is more than one way to skin a cat, whether he likes it or not.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:

I am listening to you and I appreciate your involvement.

Since these Pistons are most likely going to be replaced, I am using them to teach myself where and how to measure them.

The Block needs extra cast flashing and the sharp edges bumped/removed, so that this procedure will prevent cracks in the future, where using a 3" round soft metal wheel in a drill, using slow speed to remove the paint. I can't depend on some shops to go out of their way in order to perform over and beyond their call of duty to remove casting flaws, we did the same on my Th 400, so we are good at it, trust us. I elected to service the Block and we have pulled the freeze plugs, only. On the exterior of the block, we removed most of the paint. We will clean the Block tomorrow with Dawn soap and a soft brush, in order that we may obtain our own set of gauge readings and precise measurements, ones that I can record in my own book, as I have been doing for the last ten years.

For example, look what happened when I brought the Heads to the shop and the machinist said that he would cut the exhaust seat bosses back to the proper size, then changed his mind and just installed a better seal over them.

When this Block goes to the shop, I will ask him to Magnaflux it and depending and depending of the outcome and if the Block is usable, we will let the shop go to work on it. I would have the Cam Bearings removed, inspect the Cam and Crank alignment in the Block, shave the Deck, and whatever they recommend.

I will bring the Pistons in on their Rods, along with the Cam and Crank to be inspected.

Once I get that report/information from them, then I will post the prognosis and we can talk about it from there.

Thank you all for your help, just to recap, this is either going to be a light build or if it needs to be Bored over, I just as well make it into a stroker SD clone. I will let the same shop build it as long as I get a warrantee for one to three years, if they will. It will come home as a short Block in a Bag. I have no doubt that I can build a motor, just not this one. It is one (1967 428 ci "special equipment" HO YK code) of 1035 ever made.

Ok now it sounds like you are definitely on right track. Thanks that answer allot of questions.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Lou and I have hypothesized that since # 7 & 8 cylinders are sharing the Crank Pin Journal toward the rear, next to the fattest Bearing, #5, we think that shared Journal got Hot.

Evidenced by the finding that # 4 Cranks lower main Cap is worn down to the copper layer. None of the other four lower or upper Main areas are affected in that way, as a matter of fact they are good. The Rod Pin Journals show the most ware and rightfully so, from my studies. Since the Pistons on their Rods are both spinning and reciprocating at the same time, while the Crank only has to turn.

Another factor to be considered, in my case, is the fact that some Engine builder put the Pistons in backwards for race reasons, seems to be the consensus. This trick may get you extra HP, but at the expense of creating Piston slap and shortening the overall life of an Engine, but racers and Moon shiners don't care about these things.

A third thing to consider is that the Pontiac block could be cooled better, hence I added the two 421 and Pontiac mods to my Block and Heads and the result from that is an evenly cooled Block. We measured this with a Laser temp. gauge, at each corner of the motor.

Since the # 7 cylinder was suspect at first after we listened to the motor with a stethoscope. Later confirmed to be the cause of the noise that we heard. Finally, visually seeing the ware on the Crank Pin Journal, all those score lines are rough, deep and into the smooth surface. We believe that friction and heat at the # 7 & 8 Rods were caused by the Pistons going up and down, had a direct and adverse effect on the fourth Crank Journals lower Cap Bearing, worn to the copper layer.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Gach

Ok now it sounds like you are definitely on the right track. Thanks that answer a lot of questions.

Mikes reply:

No, thank you.

Plenty to do yet, finding a reputable builder for this motor, I already got beaten by the Head Machinist. I am very Leary of people that claim one thing and do another; I hope I find the best for the job and that he takes pride in it. Then the decision of the parts, this job is in the best direction, but far from over.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by grivera

You really are hilarious - I don’t want credit for it since I didn’t say it, just pointed out you should acknowledge those who did. That aside, good luck.

Thank you, and I expect that you will continue helping this novice's adventure into the Unknown. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by dataway

I once had a patron come in the bar, acting very strange, I told them ... "I don't know what prescription you've been given ... but you are either taking too much, or, not enough"

The patron then went totally berserk, but that's another story.

Mikes Reply:

I am sure that is just what he wanted to hear.

Goating him into an argument, for your own sick reasons, makes me wonder who needs the help more!

Bet you didn't get a Tip...

[Gach]

If and when you finally resolve yourself to the fact that it needs to be bored and new pistons. 99% of doubt when it comes to a machine shop quality of work will come from choice of parts. You mentioned if it comes to that, you highly considering going with a stroker kit. If you want to eliminate 99.90 % of a questionable machine stops ability. By supply everything yourself. Long long a go, I realize this and would never have them supply anything. I just want to give you something to think about.

Here’s just part of the process lets say..ok it has to be bored and new pistons installed, ok now you get into the process, those piston pins are press fit, also those rods will need to be re-sized and new rods bolts. Most likely machine shop will require that So if the new pistons require press fit pin, vs full floated piston. In oder to do press fit pistons, what the do is heat the small end of the rod.

But here’s the thing thats a process that has long been eliminated with using full floated pistons. Kind of old school doing press fit.

[Gach]

So anyway The bottom line, is this buy a complete stroker kit. Comes with everything Rings, bearing, rods, balanced, all gaskets, rear main seal, the whole 9 yards. Sell your crank, so it needs to be turned -010 ( what ever) ok when it comes to using stock rods, I don’t care if they’ve been re-sized and new rods bolts. You are taking one hell of a chance, he’s why, oh motor all done, in car and everything great your happer then a pig in chit. But one day your out with car taking it though gears, then all of the sudden, rod lets go, for what every reason Guess what now you’ve destroyed the whole motor, specially if it windows the block.

The thing about stock rods is this, whats the history of those rods, with weather recondition or not how much fatigue have they suffered. Because it was over heated and donation the kind of donation you or previous owner of that motor has never heard, its like running round with a grenade with the Pin out, oh recondition they look pretty. You think your Golden.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Gach

If and when you finally resolve yourself to the fact that it needs to be bored and new pistons. 99% of doubt when it comes to a machine shop quality of work will come from choice of parts. You mentioned if it comes to that, you are highly considering going with a stroker kit. If you want to eliminate 99.90 % of a questionable machine stops ability. By supplying everything yourself. Long ago, I realized this and would never have them supply anything. I just want to give you something to think about.

Here’s just part of the process let’s say..ok it has to be bored and new pistons installed, ok now you get into the process, those piston pins are press fit, also those rods will need to be re-sized and new rods bolts. Most likely machine shops will require that, so if the new pistons require press fit pin vs. full floated piston. In order to press-fit pistons, what they do is heat the small end of the rod.

But here’s the thing that's a process that has long been eliminated by using full floated pistons. Kind of old school doing press fit.

Mikes reply:

When I get to that point of progress, I will see what Butler has to offer and we can tailor the kit to whatever from there. I like the Pistons with the Black stuff on the Skirts. I will be shopping for the part prices that Butler is offering through other companies' prices and products too. At least when I see Butlers parts it will tell me everything down to the Bolts.

P.S. I would go for the snap ring myself, unless press fit is better?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Gach

So, anyway the bottom line, is this buy a complete stroker kit. Comes with everything Rings, bearing, rods, balanced, all gaskets, rear main seal, the whole 9 yards.

Sell your crank, so it needs to be turned .010" (whatever) ok, when it comes to using stock rods, I don’t care if they’ve been re-sized and new rods bolts. You are taking one hell of a chance, here’s why, oh motor all done, in the car and everything great you’re happier than a pig in ****. But one day you're out with the car, taking it though gears, then all of the sudden, rod lets go, for whatever reason. Guess what, now you’ve destroyed the whole motor, especially if it windows the block.

The thing about stock rods is this, what's the history of those rods, with weather recondition or not, how much fatigue have they suffered. Because it was overheated and experienced detonation, the kind of detonation that you or the previous owner of that motor has never heard, it's like running round with a grenade with the Pin out, oh recondition, they look pretty. You think you're Golden.

Mikes reply:

My original plan, If the parts that I have are "ok" and I can reuse them for street use, then, for originality's sake, I was thinking of trying, selling this motor to the person who needs it for their concourse restoration and is willing to pay out the arr for it.

Use the proceeds and buy a monster motor, shop till I drop.

I am not so sure of the value that this motor adds to my vehicle.

What kind of price could I be expecting, my guess with the Tri-power Rochester carbs. being true GTO and the intake being numbers correct, asking for $25 k?

What have I got to lose, I won't even run it, sell as is, just rebuilt by such and such here is the receipt and their guarantee...

I need to address this question while I am at it, please give me your thoughts on the matter, as truthfully as you can, "you own a 1967 GTO, Firebird, Big car and it is in concourse condition and this motor is perfect for your car VIN: 1967 YK code 428 ci HO Tri-power, you've upgraded from the Quadrajet. What are you willing to pay for this motor, if it increases the value of your vehicle from 100k with the period correct story to concourse matching code, correct now the market price is $ 250 K - $ 300k?

P.S. That Butler Kit has the Stroker kit includes the 455 Crank, I believe.

The above question is Hypothetical, but I need to get a real value, so I can benefit best.

My vehicle, by VIN. had the 403 ci Olds Engine in it from the factory.

[jerry455]

Being that the only Tri power optioned vehicle in 1967 was the 427 Corvette, adding a Tri power to an original or restored car will not increase its value. Unless the person is truly looking for that on their motor. If I remember correctly, Royal Pontiac, conducted some testing running at Motor City Dragway, using a 1967 GTO with a Q jet and then swapping a 1966 Tri power unit and it showed no appreciable improvement. The Q jet has proven itself to be a pretty good carburetor for making power.

[rolling money pits]

Assume your “stock” rods are original, 55 some odd years old with countless hours of stress on them.

Zero need to spend one dime on them, other than printing UPS label.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

QUOTE=Gach;6483108] So, anyway the bottom line, is this buy a complete stroker kit. Comes with everything Rings, bearing, rods, balanced, all gaskets, rear main seal, the whole 9 yards.

Sell your crank, so it needs to be turned .010" (whatever) ok, when it comes to using stock rods, I don’t care if they’ve been re-sized and new rods bolts. You are taking one hell of a chance, here’s why, oh motor all done, in the car and everything great you’re happier than a pig in ****. But one day you're out with the car, taking it threw the gears, then all of the sudden, rod lets go, for whatever reason. Guess what, now you’ve destroyed the whole motor, especially if it windows the block.

The thing about stock rods is this, what's the history of those rods, with weather recondition or not, how much fatigue have they suffered. Because it was overheated and experienced detonation, the kind of detonation that you or the previous owner of that motor has never heard, it's like running round with a grenade with the Pin out, oh recondition, they look pretty. You think you're Golden. [/QUOTE]

Mikes reply:

My original plan, If the parts that I have are "ok" and I can reuse them for street use, then, for originality's sake, I was thinking of trying, selling this motor to the person who needs it for their concourse restoration and is willing to pay out the arr for it.

Use the proceeds and buy a monster motor, shop till I drop.

I am not so sure of the value that this motor adds to my vehicle.

What kind of price could I be expecting, my guess with the Tri-power Rochester carbs. being true GTO and the intake being numbers correct, asking for $25 k?

What have I got to lose, I won't even run it, sell as is, just rebuilt by such and such here is the receipt and their guarantee...

I need to address this question while I am at it, please give me your thoughts on the matter, as truthfully as you can, "you own a 1967 GTO, Firebird, Big car and it is in concourse condition and this motor is perfect for your car VIN: 1967 YK code 428 ci HO Tri-power, you've upgraded from the Quadrajet. What are you willing to pay for this motor, if it increases the value of your vehicle from 100k with the period correct story to concourse matching code, correct now the market price is $ 250 K - $ 300k?

P.S. That Butler Kit has the Stroker kit includes the 455 Crank, I believe.

The above question is Hypothetical, but I need to get a real value, so I can benefit best.

My vehicle, by VIN. had the 403 ci Olds Engine in it from the factory.

Note: To a concourse-built vehicle, this motor with the original parts, with the refresh that I have done already, finished off with all the bottom end parts serviced with original parts. Now, the concourse people and judges are not worried about the longevity, so much as the originality. Only if I keep this motor and run it in my car as a conversational piece with zero real value installed in my car, this is what I face here. This is a business decision and I have no clue about the market value, other than watching the auctions on the internet. I sold my 1971 Chevelle, 1981 Camaro and a 1968 Mercury Comet cheap, just to get them off the property that I live on with my double-wide. The management said that my fleet has to go.

I had a couple of vans and trailers all around the property, that I did not own. Not to mention all the spare parts for those cars that I threw away. It makes me sick today just thinking about it. To be forced to give up, what today is valuable. Every time a Chevelle crosses the block, I cringe, because I installed a 350 ci crate motor, had a trans am scoop on top in reverse, black bumpers and rally wheels painted black, the vehicle was painted Red and the original interior was fair, plus a factory AC car. I can tell you people; the market is high; it is a sellers' market and I just had some people come to my home, from within this park and offer me 40 k for it. I could not take the money, because when I shopped around to learn about the value of homes at this time, I found prices of 100k to 250 k for double-wide's.

Then I called the office and they said 200 k for a double-wide and after I explained the particulars, he came down to 140-150k as a real figure, in this park. I wanted to grab the cash in front of me and I reasoned, "why is this guy in so such a hurry. So, I waited and it is a good thing I did, because I am sitting on a gold mine. Who would have thunk it? Mind you I only paid 5 k for this mobile home and 4 k for the one that I owned concurrently with this one. I broke that one up into seven bedrooms and rented them furnished with made up beds, furniture and Tv, turn key operation, this one is four bedrooms, so I rented ten rooms out and lived free in the eleventh. God is good, I took homeless people in and took no first last or security, I expected them to man up and pay. I helped them to get employed and gave them my tools to help get started.

I then got sick and could not manage the monster that I created and that was that, closed down.

[Gach]

Yeah there was no 428 Tri Power..So its not original to that motor. But the Tri Power alone is worth some money. Depending on what year Tri Power it is. Still worth BUCKS! I sold one 20 years ago for $1100. It was and all original 66 GTO Tri Power. All in good working condition.

As far as 428 motor it’s self, restored that would depend on what its original to. 68- 69 Grand P. My all original 69 Grand Prix cam with a 428. My guess to get big bucks ( again depending) on what its original too ? To my knowledge no GTO‘s or fibers came with 428’s. And no 428’s came with Tri power. That I know of.

[tom s]

Mike,I think your going to hard pressed to get any kind of warranty on a HiPo engine build.Maybe something like 30days on parts and labor if ALL new parts are put in.JMHO,Tom

[Gach]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I think you’re saying that this 428 motor came with a tri power. Either way completely rebuilt at most, original intake heads. Maybe 12,000-15,000 grand. Thats what Butler gets for one. Maybe if you catch a sleeper $20,000.00.

[Gach]

Mike I may have miss it, and I’m not reading through pages. So whats on your 428 for a Carb, or dose it have Tri Power. If it does have Tri power don’t think it’s original to that motor. I know 421’s had Tri Power though.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by jerry455

Being that the only Tri power optioned vehicle in 1967 was the 427 Corvette, adding a Tri power to an original or restored car will not increase its value. Unless the person is truly looking for that on their motor. If I remember correctly, Royal Pontiac, conducted some testing running at Motor City Dragway, using a 1967 GTO with a Q jet and then swapping a 1966 Tri power unit and it showed no appreciable improvement. The Q jet has proven itself to be a pretty good carburetor for making power.

Mikes reply:

Dad was a racer, in NY at Mitchel field in the 60's, we my twin and I would go to the races and set up the pylons and mark their position with paint in the morning and then go play until his friends got us to watch him race. He had one of the first top 500 Corvettes made in 66 & 69, both with 427 ci, one had the Triangle air cleaner and the other looked like the small air filter went up into the Hood. Knowing my father, he would finance the best since he had to make payments anyway. He said that he would get them blue printed and balanced. Knowing what I do today, since he worked in Mineola, he passed by Baldwin Moton and I WOULD SPECULATE TODAY THAT they PERFORMED THE WORK ON BOTH THE CONVERTABLES. HE DID NOT HAVE THAT STINGER HOOD, BUT HE MUST HAVE HAD THE ROCK CRUSHER STANDARD TRANS. IN THEM. I sat in the car on race day and he got up to 160 MPH in no time, we would race from light to light on the way to the track. They turned that field into the Nassa coliseum eventually. We would investigate every corner of that airport; I remember seeing a car/boat next to the old tower.

You said:

"Royal Pontiac, conducted some testing running at Motor City Dragway, using a 1967 GTO with a Q jet and then swapping a 1966 Tri power unit and it showed no appreciable improvement. The Q jet has proven itself to be a pretty good carburetor for making power.

Mikes reply"

In my Archives, that I have stored, some information of test trials, I mean lots of them, that I found on one of the forums, it shows all the different combos of Pontiacs racing each other, if any one wants me to scour my computer for that data, I will be glad, but give me some time.

There also was a test on an internet show, where they tested the Quad. vs dual carbs vs Tri-power on a dyno, all worked well and came in at different times, but the Tri-power won on aesthetics alone. The look wins, at a car show, every time.