[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Old Goat 67

Knowing what I know today, I would do just what I did. Find a correct impeller and either rebuild the whole unit or put the impeller on a reman pump.

They worked just fine back then and still do.

My thoughts exactly. I tend top lean towards -finding another pump with the correct impeller and having your current one rebuilt. There must be a ton of them out there. Post something in the wanted section. It doesn't even have to be a good pump.

[GT182]

Boostmaster, if you can find a local mom&pop parts store, see if they'll get a few in from Cardone. But it's another crapshoot on getting the right one in. I've tried here but no dice.

Cardone does have the Pontiac 8 bolt water pumps with the correct impeller.... but all of their stock is now in their warehouse in Dallas, TX. I could PM you their phone number up here in Philly and you could call them. Don't expect much, but it could be worth a shot. OR another long shot.... see if you can get Cardone's number in Dallas and call them. That number I'd like to have too.

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by boostmaster

So, I'm several pages into the water pump thread. From what I gather, the cast impeller is the way to go... I'm having a hard time telling the difference in the pics (Not really sure what I'm looking for- never had much occasion to study water pumps) looks like Cardone may have had an answer? (I had scrolled a few pages forward and seen chatter about Cardone units.- their ad below states it's the NEW design)

Short of sourcing an original housing and cast impeller ...How about this unit? (It's cast) $43 @rockauto (If this won't do, where is it that one would source the CORRECT impeller)?

http://www.cardone.com/Products/Prod...5511137&p=rock

Looks great, HOWEVER, what you see is NOT what you get!

P.S. If you DO find one, let us all know! We've been searching for years.......

[GT182]

Originally Posted by Old Goat 67

P.S. If you DO find one, let us all know! We've been searching for years.......

Well... we actually sort of did find them and know they are out there. But now we can't get them or get in contact with Cardone to get and/or find out how to get them. They never gave us a part number for the pump with the correct impeller.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

My thoughts exactly. I tend top lean towards -finding another pump with the correct impeller and having your current one rebuilt. There must be a ton of them out there. Post something in the wanted section. It doesn't even have to be a good pump.

I was thinking about this after I posted it. Is there any validity in this statement?? Im looking at a possible engine rebuild and might as well start looking now.

What I mean is this - if there is anything wrong with the water pump that I may buy, is there any reason why the rebuilder cold not use the impeller?

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

I was thinking about this after I posted it. Is there any validity in this statement?? Im looking at a possible engine rebuild and might as well start looking now.

What I mean is this - if there is anything wrong with the water pump that I may buy, is there any reason why the rebuilder cold not use the impeller?

As I said before, GOOD SHAPED IMPELLER, get it!

[boostmaster]

So, let me see if I can clarify so I don't screw this up...

I need to find the correct impeller and this impeller can be pressed onto any housing?

The confusion I have is that while I'm looking at pictures of the various pumps, I see some differences but, I don't think I'm understanding what is meant by the "correct" impeller.

For example, I see the stamped units seem to be smaller and have a star shaped pattern. Then, I see the cast units like mine but, I'm told mine is no good... Is it because it's too small? Is it because it's a 6 vane as opposed to an 8 vane that I saw someone post (as OEM)?

Heck, I even checked ebay for a used unit (trying to find this elusive impeller) and they all had 6 vanes and looked a lot like mine.

What am I missing here?

Maybe some sample pics for reference? (They all kinda looks the same to me.)

Here's some of the stuff I'm finding locally: (prices range from $28 -$72)

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...er=318682_0_0_

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...ump#fragment-3

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...1398&ppt=C0331

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...122_0258172172

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...299_0131317870

http://www.amazon.com/Cardone-Indust...est+water+pump

[GT182]

It's the curve on the top of the vanes. For all the ones being sold from Cardone, the vanes were shaved flat until they were shown that there is a curve in the originals from Pontiac to match the cruve of the original divider plate. Yes stainless steel plates are sold but they do not match the curve of the originals and cause cavatation of the coolant.... not good and will not help the flow of the coolant. You must pound the living daylights out of the SS rear plate to get a match to the impeller curve and get the correct gap between the plate and impeller. It' close to impossilbe and ends up a mess. Pontiac never made the rear plate so it needed to be pounded on.

Here's a thread I started on the meeting Paul Spotts and I had with Cardone back on 3/3/2011......
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...hlight=Cardone

And go thru this section too....
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=411256

In it you will see the difference in the original steel rear plate Pontiac made versus the new and unimproved SS plates being made now. I personally do NOT recommend them, even tho others have used them and don't mind pounding on them. As long as you keep antifreeze in you cooling system the steel plates will last for years and years. And Inline Tube is selling repos of the original correct divider plates for the 8 bolt waterpumps. Who actually is making them I do not know.

One thing about all the suppliers you have links too..... They don't show a profile of the impeller from the side so you can see if there's a curve to the top of the impeller's vanes or if they are shaved flat. None of the ones you showed are correct just by looking at the number of vanes on the impellers. They're really only crap, and probably made in China. You couldn't give me one of any of them shown. You have to actually have one in-hand to see if it's correct and useable. Photos don't show crap.

[GT182]

Finally..... I got thru to my contact at Cardone in Philly a few minutes ago, and something will be done on finding the part number for the 8 bolt waterpump with the correct cast impeller. Give it a few days as he will have to contact Cardone in Dallas so they can find these pumps in the warehouse.

My blood pressure has gone thru the roof, but it's all worth it if this comes thru for us all.

[boostmaster]

Curved top of the vane!!! OK now I understand. No wonder I couldn't see what you guys were talking about...

I guess I will hold on a few days to see what comes of this "new" development. If Cardone provides a good part number I'm happy to be the test mule and purchase one and shoot some pics for all to see... (I guess I'll also be ordering the proper plate from ILT as well)

I'm glad I asked the questions. Too much that I just don't know and that the "books" don't explain... Now, I'll need to start a thread on fuel pumps and ignition coils- (I have the old ones of those as well- I'm sure I need new. Not sure If I need OEM style or some fancy upgraded units to avoid "common" issues.)

[Old Goat 67]

Just sent a very detailed email to Gary's contact in Cardone. We'll see how he responds and let you guys know.

Charles

[charles bledsoe]

When I changed my water pump out, I went to O'Rilleys auto parts and looked in their catalog at the Cardone pumps as they had to order one. I was able to get one with the correct impeller. The pump arrived the next day. I did bang a little on the original plates to get them a little closer. Everything has worked out so far, ran it all last summer with no problem. Didn't write down the part number. If you have an O'Rilleys where you live, you might want to go there and take a look. I printed out a picture of the impeller and brought it with me to make sure I didn't get the wrong (star shaped) one.

[Old Goat 67]

Here is the explanation I sent to cardone earlier.

Maybe it will help you to understand better.

The pumps you are putting out mostly have the impellers configured like this.

Improper or no contour to match what the plates have.


Which, when placed in the timing cover on the front of our Pontiac engines leaves a gap between the impeller and plate like this which causes cavitation and drastically reduced & improper water flow through the radiator. This gap generally measures ¼” or more.



I was lucky enough back in 2008 to find one of your 58-299 pumps that got through your system without having had the OEM type impeller cut down which looked like this. Here is a shot of the one I bought by chance and how it fits.

Mine runs so cool it's like I FINALLY have a brand new car! The volume of water movement is phenomenal! Engine temperature WILL NOT get above 5° of rating of thermostat! Even with AC on in July in Louisiana.



Notice how well the taller/contoured vanes pump fits the original plates here. Curvature of the blades is an exact match to the original plate.

The bulge in the plates was actually part of the pump chamber, allowing maximum pump volume for the given space allowed in the front of the timing chain cover.



This gives you a better idea where these pumps, plates and timing chain cover go together.



Inline Tube has started making the OEM correct plates, but NO ONE is putting out pumps that match.




This eight bolt pump configuration was used from 1963 to 1968 and then an eleven bolt pump was introduced that went all the way to 1979 when Pontiac stopped producing the V8 engine.

The eleven bolt pumps have the same problem as these I just discussed.


We are constantly being asked by all the other Pontiac restorers where to get a PROPER water pump and we have to tell them “No one builds one”.

I’m sure we would be able to make it worth your while if you were to correct this grievous wrong we have to live with.

I would be willing to bet we could sell 500 to 1000 of these in the first month they became available.

Does that help?

Charles

[Old Blue 66]

Charles, so I understand the difference, the circles show whats missing from the bad impeller and the lines shows that the impeller is supposed to be taller?

The first pic in your post is rusty and I cant see the difference between the two. And what do yo mean by contoured veins?

[Old Goat 67]

Your circles have nothing to do with it.

Look at the curvature of the tops of the vanes. See how they match the curvature of the plates? They are taller also because they have not been cut down flat.

[Old Blue 66]

Ok so the fins are taller, I get that. The fins cant be squared off they have to be rounded. Is this what Im missing?

[Old Goat 67]

Exactly. When they are flattened, they do not match the curve of the plates and therefore you have whats called cavitation. IE, water flows around the edge much more and is not moved the way it was engineered. IE, volume of water pushed is less and flow through radiator is less. Overheating.

Flattening the plate to match the flat impeller reduces the cavitation, but volume suffers.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Old Goat 67

Exactly. When they are flattened, they do not match the curve of the plates and therefore you have whats called cavitation. IE, water flows around the edge much more and is not moved the way it was engineered. IE, volume of water pushed is less and flow through radiator is less. Overheating.

Flattening the plate to match the flat impeller reduces the cavitation, but volume suffers.

Thank you. Now I understand.

[Old Goat 67]

Glad to help.

[Old Blue 66]

Theres a pump on my car thats not original and leaking. So thats why I had so much interest in learning.