[prostreet64]

For you guys who may have done this conversion before, which is 'easier' to do? the 3rd or 4th gen Firebird? I can find a decent car at a good price but is the cost and effort of putting traditional Pontiac power and drive line in the newer chassis just not worth it? I want to build a 10 sec car and I have the motor and many other needed parts on hand but 1st and 2nd gen cars are just too expensive.

[ponyakr]

The 3rd gen is MUCH easier !

A few years back, I bought several nice 3rd gen bodies for less than $500 each. Was gonna install a 455 for bracket racing. Ended up buying a race ready 455 Ventura 2, instead. Also found a cheap 1st & 2nd gen drag race roller. So, I sold the 3rd gen bodies.

I also looked at a 4th gen body. Was gonna use it, til I raised the hood and looked at the engine bay. Not enuff room there to work on a Pontiac engine. Would not even attempt a 4th gen build.

For a few years, there were parts sold to do the Pontiac engine swap into a 3rd gen. But, those parts are no longer available. You'll have to source your own.

There are guys here who have done the swap. There was a whole thread on one of these builds, a while back. I'll look it up & post a link.

Here's a link to the thread. Most of the 3rd gen threads I've seen always seem to fizzle out, before completion.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=748495

There are different ways to mount the engine. For race only, engine plates are probably best, or at least a rear plate and solid side mounts. The '75-'81 Bird Pontiac engine mount brackets will work. I've read that the '82 Birds were originally intended to accept the 301 engine, using the same mounts that were used in the late 2nd gen Birds.

Here's a pic of the engine bay in the Burton's 3rd gen GT car, showing the front engine plate. May be a bit of overkill, if you are just building a bracket car. 2nd pic shows some '77 Bird mounts, in a 3rd gen race car. I think I got this pic from the Angeles & McCarthy book.

https://www.amazon.com/Pontiac-Racer.../dp/B0006YSIDQ

[BruceWilkie]

4th gens supposedly tougher mainly because back of motor gets under windshield area. That said, the 4th gens seem lower priced unless special pkg. Seen both and they seem to make nice race cars.

My 90 has damaged pinch rail and previous owner cut roof for sunroof so it's weak... So it's going to be my parts car, I didn't pay much($300)... I temporarily mocked up Pontiac and it fits, so I'm looking for a nice 91_92 at low price.

Too nice 91 TA nearby for $3500... But if price comes down I might grab it!

[ponjohn]

I recently read that g-body motor mounts with the 3rd gen cars.

[ponyakr]

Norman Warling, who posts here is Scott Burton's neighbor. He has been good to provide race info. So, he may be able to provide useful info for a Pontiac powered 3rd gen.

Other 3rd gen race cars that come to mind belong to Greg Meyer, Bill Kennedy, & Lynn McCarty. Don't know if any of these guys would provide any info or not. Some guys are willing to help others. Some are not, for various reasons.

https://www.facebook.com/lynn.mccarty.77

One item that MUST be changed is the rear end. The 7.5 3rd gen rear is very weak. No reason to put any money into one of 'em. The torque arm suspension actually works pretty good. There are all sorts of upgraded torque arm set-ups for 3rd gens. And, rear end housings with the torque arm attachment are readily available.

http://www.quickperformance.com/1982--1992_c_559.html

http://www.moserengineering.com/MAKE.dept

https://www.strangeengineering.net/p...s-brakes.html/

https://www.currieenterprises.com/82...-crate-rearend

[prostreet64]

ponyakr, thanks for the info and link; I like the look of the 4th gen better but it sounds like the 3rd gen will be the way to go. I have found good prices on both models. This project is still a ways off but I am looking now in case a deal comes my way that I just can't pass up.

[JD311]

The pic underhood of the white car is a 4th gen.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by JD311

The pic underhood of the white car is a 4th gen.

Yep, I think you're right. The engine is an alum head 428, which is what the Burtons are running this year. But, last year, they were running an iron head 400. The engine pics are on my laptop with the Burton 3rd gen. Don't have a clue where I got 'em from.

So, this pic must be either from the "4th gen "Hatari" Bird, or Leo Glasbrenner's 4th gen. They're the only other white 4th gen alum head 428 drag cars I'm aware of.

https://www.facebook.com/burtondragracing/

[BruceWilkie]

https://nashville.craigslist.org/cto...577254506.html

Almost too nice for race car.

[ponyakr]

Many times you can find a car that has already been converted to a race car, a lot cheaper than you can buy a stock body & build from scratch.

3rd gen Birds have long been popular drag cars. Most were obviously set up with Chevy engines. But, there are probably lots of good buys out there on 3rd gen drag rollers.

https://www.racingjunk.com/Pontiac/1...48&from=search

https://www.racingjunk.com/Door-Cars...08&from=search

https://knoxville.craigslist.org/cto...593130539.html

https://www.racingjunk.com/Door-Cars...=8&from=search

Or, how 'bout a 2nd gen roller ?

https://www.racingjunk.com/Door-Cars...=0&from=search

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Many times you can find a car that has already been converted to a race car, a lot cheaper than you can buy a stock body & build from scratch.

3rd gen Birds have long been popular drag cars. Most were obviously set up with Chevy engines. But, there are probably lots of good buys out there on 3rd gen drag rollers.

Agree... The one above could be best used set up for drag week type events... Pontiac powered of course.

Racing Junk isn't a bad site to shop either.

[prostreet64]

Bruce, like you said there are some 3rd gens out there that are too nice to convert to a race car only format. I have seen several in the $2500 to $3000 price range that are well optioned with working a/c and relatively low mileage. And as ponyakr said it may be cheaper in the long run to find a car already set up for racing; I am considering all options. I should have mentioned in my original post that I want to build a car that is street legal, not race only. I intend to drive it to the track like I do now with my Trans Am. No trailers in the plan. This condition does not eliminate the possibility of a roller if the work to bring it up to street legal status is not too much.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by prostreet64

Bruce, like you said there are some 3rd gens out there that are too nice to convert to a race car only format. I have seen several in the $2500 to $3000 price range that are well optioned with working a/c and relatively low mileage. And as ponyakr said it may be cheaper in the long run to find a car already set up for racing; I am considering all options. I should have mentioned in my original post that I want to build a car that is street legal, not race only. I intend to drive it to the track like I do now with my Trans Am. No trailers in the plan. This condition does not eliminate the possibility of a roller if the work to bring it up to street legal status is not too much.

Sounds like my plan... I used to drive 40+ miles to the track . A few times over 130 one way to other tracks. 10 years I only came home once on a trailer. My starter "blew up". It was late on a Sunday. A friend always trailered his street car to track. Fortunately I talked him into driving his Dodge... But then I ended up driving it and he drove the truck trailer. Man his car was hot inside, no insulation and no vents.

[BruceWilkie]

FYI Hawks has near anything for 3rd Gen.
BMR has nice frame connectors, chassis upgrades and transmission crossmembers for near any trans. UMI another good source. Check Detroit Speed too.

Strange has a bolt in Dana60(S60). Mosier and others offer bolt in 9" Ford and 12bolt GM. I've got a 9.3 Pontiac/Olds I might use but will likely narrow a 9" I have. (Thinking 390/45-15 M+H tires )

[prostreet64]

Bruce, thanks for the info. I have a lot of research to do! On the subject of driving vs. trailering our cars to the track, Curtis and I have always driven, but then we are only 7 miles from Gainesville Raceway so even if we had a problem we could get a tow or figure out someway to get home without a big hassle.

[ponyakr]

"...I should have mentioned in my original post that I want to build a car that is street legal, not race only..."


Yeah, that's makes a LOT of difference.

All the 3rd gens I bought had ragged out interior. Will cost more to buy one with a clean body & interior, that is still street legal. And, just to upgrade the rear end & suspension, from a 7.5 set-up, will cost some $$$.

"...2nd gen cars are just too expensive..."

All this considered makes a 2nd gen look more affordable, since they have the 8.5 rear. Cal-Trac bars will take care of the traction problems. Some even get by with slappers.

There are usually several '79-'81 Birds available, for a reasonable price.

Hey, just more food for thought.

Here's just a few of those listed on CL.

https://littlerock.craigslist.org/ct...595542280.html

https://littlerock.craigslist.org/ct...575426553.html

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/c...596739979.html

Obviously, I have no idea if any of these ads are legit, or if the cars even exist.

https://charlotte.craigslist.org/cto...590987444.html

https://indianapolis.craigslist.org/...595580802.html

https://kansascity.craigslist.org/ct...594284646.html

Don't know how much work you're willing to do.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-Pontia...RbEKTc&vxp=mtr

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-Pontia...5bFYYQ&vxp=mtr

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Pontia...BbBxAj&vxp=mtr

[azbirds]

I talked my buddy into putting a 455 with KRE D-ports in his 83 MSE T/A. It turned out tp be an awesome car.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by azbirds

I talked my buddy into putting a 455 with KRE D-ports in his 83 MSE T/A. It turned out tp be an awesome car.

What motor mounts?

[azbirds]

I'll have to check with him because i have crs right now.

[azbirds]

He believes that we used 1973 Firebird mounts.