[78w72]

Darn it, got sucked into this one too.... Straight 40 weight oil? With lucas additive that will thicken it even more?? Why??? The engine calls for a 10w30 or 10w40. There is absolutely no benefit or reason to running a straight 40w oil! Are you trying to mask the noise with a band aid that can cause other problems? Pontiac engineers designed the engine to run on a certain weight oil, not play games running 4 times thicker oil to mask a noise.

All the guessing at stuff like head gaskets making internal engine noises, acoustic coupling, 1 valve guide allowing a valve to rock back & forth causing the noise, previous dryer duct creating back pressure to dislodge a valve seat, flexplate bolt holes causing noises, etc etc, all are wild left field guesses that have shown to be untrue or others have said numerous times thats not how things work. The guess of running pure ATF in the engine has far more chance of causing a noise than anything else mentioned so far.

Just like the last thread that went off the rails, please keep this one related to the topic of the th400 trans rebuild, if you are now attempting to fix a engine noise... start a new thread for that. or are you hoping for 800+ posts on this one too?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Noise; A Roller rocker just might be hitting the valve cover. Bearing in Front Pump or Alternator, or a bum lifter guts.

Mikes reply:

I don't use roller Rockers at this time, so we can rule that one out.

I can run the Motor and listen to the Water pump and Alt. , however, the noise is coming from the # 7 cyl. area. And if the lifter is damaged in that area, I will have to start pulling them. I do have the tool to pull the Lifters out and the compressor to fill the spark plug hole with air to hold up the valve. I too thought of a Lifter issue. Last night we pulled the Valve covers and ran the motor for a closer observation of where the noise is emanating from and Lou still thinks # 7 upper end/top of motor. We thought that by going to a heavier oil it may pump up a hanging Lifter to our advantage, however if we change the oil, we will go for the 10-40 instead. However, I still need to read about the so-called benefits of using Synthetic Motor oil for lubrication purposes, not to mask the noise sound, believe me I thought of that already too. Thank you for your input, without the ridicule. Some people are unneighborly at times. Please be more sensitive about what I am going through. Sure, I can rip this Motor apart, but what am I learning if that is the first thing I do, instead of methodically working my way to the root of a problem. So far, as I think my way, we have discovered a need to replace the Harmonic Balancer and the Flexplate, both of which would have come out in a total rebuild anyway. We had the Heads remanufactured and that is part of a rebuild, is it not? We are heading in the direction of a rebuild, we're just not prepared to go all the way until we go over every other possible internal or external reason an Engine could make a ghost noise. It may very well come down to a rebuild motor and then you can say, "I told you so".

The AC mechanic said that "all the various parts of the system needed to be replaced", but I went through each and every one, as I went along the way. Turned out he was correct.

The Transmission Mechanic over the internet said "to rebuild the Trans.", but I went another 300 miles before doing so, at least that gave me the confidence to rebuild it myself. All that Reading and testing and tuning paid off, when I finally rebuilt the Trans., successfully. This Motor will be here when it is time to be rebuilt, the only thing that has not been, is the lower end and I have always been working toward the complete job.

As far as "how I run my Thread", as long as the moderator allows me to run it my way, then that is the way it will be run, as someone said, "do you really want Mike to start seven new posts a day"?

Better for me to have everything in one place. JMO

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Darn it, got sucked into this one too.... Straight 40 weight oil? With lucas additive that will thicken it even more?? Why??? The engine calls for a 10w30 or 10w40. There is absolutely no benefit or reason to running a straight 40w oil! Are you trying to mask the noise with a band aid that can cause other problems? Pontiac engineers designed the engine to run on a certain weight oil, not play games running 4 times thicker oil to mask a noise.

All the guessing at stuff like head gaskets making internal engine noises, acoustic coupling, 1 valve guide allowing a valve to rock back & forth causing the noise, previous dryer duct creating back pressure to dislodge a valve seat, flexplate bolt holes causing noises, etc etc, all are wild left field guesses that have shown to be untrue or others have said numerous times that's not how things work. The guess of running pure ATF in the engine has far more chance of causing a noise than anything else mentioned so far.

Just like the last thread that went off the rails, please keep this one related to the topic of the th400 trans rebuild, if you are now attempting to fix an engine noise... start a new thread for that. or are you hoping for 800+ posts on this one too?

Mikes reply: I did not say this, at least not intentionally.

"Previous dryer duct, creating back pressure to dislodge a valve seat".

Mikes reply: To his former statement.

Previous dryer duct, creating back pressure to dislodge a valve "GUIDE BOSS SEAL".

bY THE WAY THE hEAD mECHANIC IS THE PERSON THAT REMANUFACTURED MY hEADS. WOOPS CAP LOCK AGAIN.

When the Head Mechanic remanufactured the Heads, he found that the Seals were dislodged off the "Boss of the Exhaust Valves". I had installed the "Hat type seals" over the Exhaust "un-cut Boss" when we installed the "041" Cam. We elected to use them, because the Hat type seals were in the gasket kit, left over from the former owner of this second-hand project, that I inherited with all its problems.

You said:

"1 valve guide allowing a valve to rock back & forth causing the noise".

Mikes reply:

Since the Head Mechanic only knurled the Valve Guide area and did not install any new Valve Guides, the above statement is not correct.

What Mike meant to say is, "because the Valve Guide bore holes are knurled only, there could be a loose fit with one Valve, that rattles the Valve stem in the Valve guides knurled area, causing the ghost noise, possibly?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

I am curious about the Line PSI at idle, and drive while cruising.

Mikes reply:

Sometime this weekend, after we change the Oil, we plan on road testing the Trans., with or without this last ghost- noise anomaly, testing for various Pressures that arise in all situations, by the book testing.

[P@blo]

Since we are talking th400 here, lets break this down. The purpose of solid bronze guides is to correctly locate the valve, relative to the newly cut seats. None of what you have done. Now put a trillion reps on that cheap valve path and it all goes to hell. This is not the right way to go about things.

But please keep posting Mike

[Formulajones]

Knurling valve guides Mike is never a good way to go, head mechanic or not. And those umbrella seals won't do you any favors either. That thing will certainly be an oil sucker in a very short amount of time. Nevermind if it makes noise.

If ya wanna keep this thread open you'd have better luck just sticking to your transmission in this one and forget about the engine and your noise.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

The further testing for Trans. pressures under way will have to wait. The change to Lucas oil treatment, ZDDP, Oil filter and 10-40 oil made a slight difference; however, the knocking noise persists. We used the Stethoscope and as far as we can tell #7 cyl. has a knocking noise? We won't know until we pull the Engine. We think that what has happened is what happened to others that I have spoken to over the years, that once you build the top end like we have done, the bottom end will either spin a bearing or fail. Since the noise is "not" a slapping sound as defined by the forum, we are thinking that the (# 5 - 7) Rod Bearing @ the Crank Pin is worn or spun, the reciprocating movement up and down is the knock? We are disassembling the Motor as we speak.

So, many were correct and I will comply by rebuilding the lower end, before we cause further problems. We learned a lot about slapping Pistons though and thanked the forum for the Heads up, even though we found the Harmonic Balancer and Flexplate needed replacing. We listened for noises from the external parts to the Motor and we certainly need a Power Steering Pump only because it is leaking. The vehicle is blocked up and safely staged for disassembly. We plan on removing everything and the Trans. will be on a Motorcycle jack, while tied to it. All were going to pull with a cherry picker is the short block. The Heads and Intake we will be removed as well as the Headers and Radiator, etc...

I am not sure if there is a machine shop in my area that is a Pontiac Specialists, if anyone has any info. about where to take the short block, I am all ears.

I could have the Heads redone with "solid bronze guides" and have the Exhaust Boss cut back and properly Sealed, while the Heads are off. The Block will be properly cleaned and all the paint removed. Once the Machinist tells me what needs to be done, then I will make my decision of what kind of build this will be. One thing for sure, I am letting the shop build this motor to factory specs., "no backward piston again and the Rods will be correctly orientated".

[Half-Inch Stud]

Reads like AI. Must be the coffee.

[462gto]

I have a Jeep 4.0 that had Piston slap that I repaired last Summer.

With the cylinder head off and the piston at the top of the cylinder I could push on the top of the piston and the slapping piston would slightly rock in the cylinder from side to side and the other pistons were solid in the cylinders.

Also, there was slight vertical wear lines on the sides of the cylinder and piston skirt of the slapping piston.

Ps.I know this thread is about the transmission but I hope this helps narrow down some of the issues you are having.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 462gto

I have a Jeep 4.0 that had Piston slap that I repaired last Summer.

With the cylinder head off and the piston at the top of the cylinder I could push on the top of the piston and the slapping piston would slightly rock in the cylinder from side to side and the other pistons were solid in the cylinders.

Also, there were slight vertical wear lines on the sides of the cylinder and piston skirt of the slapping piston.

Ps. I know this thread is about the transmission but I hope this helps narrow down some of the issues you are having.

We can certainly try moving the Pistons like you implied as soon as we remove the Heads, however when we recently removed the Heads to have them remanufactured, we did not see any vertical or horizontal scratch marks on the cyl. walls and we rotated the Motor as we set the "Lash".

I plan on bringing the short Block to a Machinist, so he can take it apart from the beginning to see what the effects the past builder had on this Engine...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

we removed the Heads and tested the Piston movement from side to side with our fingers by rocking them.

This "X" motion indicates "Piston slap" on the chart from .001-.005"

.001" seems normal, .005" seems like Piston slap?

The "Y" motion indicates "Crank Pin" movement, up and down and that being .010" seems like too much and is the noise that we hear.

Piston # 1,2,3,4 are experiencing excessive "Piston slap" X = .005" play?

Piston # 5,7,8 are experiencing excessive "Crank Pin" Y = .005" - .010" movement.

Since we have "not" pulled the motor yet, this is a preliminary test, after the Heads were removed.

Since I loaned out my "Cherry Picker" some 30 years ago to my brother who ended up selling it when he got sick with cancer, now I have to go out and buy a new one to pull the motor. I found a 2-ton "CP" at Harbor freight that costs $260 and will be going there in the morning.

I decided to take the Engine apart at home, because I think that I will be installing all new Rings and Bearings, plus a rear main seal in this build. If I can, all I want to do is Hone and cross hatch the cyl. walls. I want to keep this a 428 ci if possible, for originality. Every other replaceable part has already been installed over the last 10 years and 7,000 miles on this Engine, since I took over this second-hand project. The motor is clean inside and it already has the Brass freeze plugs installed.

P.S. I was watching a show the other day and they were explaining that there are Aftermarket Cranks that offset the piston on its center line by moving the Crank Pin orientation to Crank that accomplishes a longer Stroke, giving the piston a higher and lower reach in the cylinder bore and giving you more cubes, I hope I explained that correctly.

Also, I saw a video that a person was putting some black stuff on his outer pistons using his hands "not" a paint brush, is that for Piston Slap and should I put this product on my Pistons skirts for future ware, that is if I can find it?

[Dragncar]

The effort put into overthinking is mind boggling.
Why is this engine even apart ?

[Formulajones]

If pistons are loose in the bore and you indeed do have piston slap, just reringing and reinstalling isnt going to fix it. You'll have to bore the engine, those cylinders are out of round. Not to mention those pistons are likely done anyway.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Just like the last thread that went off the rails, please keep this one related to the topic of the th400 trans rebuild, if you are now attempting to fix a engine noise... start a new thread for that. or are you hoping for 800+ posts on this one too?

I tried that reasoning too.

Too late LOL

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

If pistons are loose in the bore and you indeed do have piston slap, just re-ringing and reinstalling isn't going to fix it. You'll have to bore the engine; those cylinders are out of round. Not to mention those pistons are likely done anyway.

Mikes reply:

I presented the numbers; I don't know if I need to over Bore the cylinders at this time.

Question: From the info. that I gave, should I overbore and buy new pistons, plus replace all the bearings while I am there?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I tried that reasoning too.

Too late LOL

Mikes reply:

If it means so much to start a new thread to you then it will be soon.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

We can certainly try moving the Pistons like you implied as soon as we remove the Heads, however when we recently removed the Heads to have them remanufactured, we did not see any vertical or horizontal scratch marks on the cyl. walls and we rotated the Motor as we set the "Lash".

I plan on bringing the short Block to a Machinist, so he can take it apart from the beginning to see what the effects the past builder had on this Engine...

Mikes reply:

This man said this:

"The other pistons were solid in the cylinders".

Mikes reply:

If the Pistons should "not" move, at all in the Bore, then I have a problem, I just don't know if it is worn rings, because I never heard piston slap. The knock is #7 @ the Crank Pin, we believe.

I would think that a noise @ the Crank Pin @ #7 would mean that it spun a Bearing or it is worn out. That would mean Bearings.

The best thing to do (IMO) will be to bring this short Block to a machinist and let them tell me what to do.

P.S. The next Thread will be called: 1967 Pontiac 428 ci Block" Build or not to Build", Myself?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:

If it means so much to start a new thread to you then it will be soon.

It would be more beneficial for you and others using the forum that are looking for information in the future. Just makes things a bit easier to find, that's all.

[Gach]

Mike do yourself a Big favor, bring it to your Machine shop, here’s why I say this, if you are relying on information from the Internet, you are always going to get conflicting information you’ll be standing there going oh yeah I know what he or they mean, 10 minutes later you’ll be walking away scratching your head. You’ll end up spending to twice the money. And still end up with a ticking Bomb or as I like to call it running around with A grenade with a Pin out.

There’s a whole procedure you have to follow on rebuilding a motor, it’s a big learning experience, in the long run what are you going save, all the machine work Has to be done by a machine shop, at best only thing you’ll save is possibly assemble it yourself.

Now if you have that one experience person that can guide you through the whole procedure one step at a time, and don’t deviate one bit from his guidance, then it could be possible. But you’ll learn a tremendous amount of information going that route.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:
The knock is #7 @ the Crank Pin, we believe.

Sigh. You're going to build a shortblock. That much is painfully clear. Has been for hundreds of posts. But you're trying to count your chickens before they've hatched. For all you know, that crank was broken in two when you dented(?!) the torque convertor.

Step 1: Mike picks a builder with a solid reputation.

They should have no trouble coming up with a plan that suits your needs. But until they know *exactly* what they're working with... Even the dreaded Supply Chain can rear it's ugly head spoiling the best laid plans. Until you clear a hurdle, it's best not to set anything in stone.