[68ragtop]

I know I bring this topic up from time to time, But I can't figure out why there are so many sources
that have this same 78 T/A production numbers.

They list Y88 W72 4 speed cars as 1267 made. We all know this to be correct.
But the numbers show 6,519 W72 automatic Y88's! I Call complete B.S. on that one.

I know there are currently no sources to distinguish the production runs between the W72 & L78 automatic cars, But come on.. The 4 speed cars where available all year long & there were only 1267 of them. The W72 Automatics where discontinued in April, It seems to me, almost every Y88 that pops up is either a L78 std 400, or a 403, & rarely a 4 speed W72. In the past 5 years I have only seen about 4 W72 Automatics. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are enough of them out there, But based on these production numbers, they should be everywhere, & I know that is not true.

Based on all of the W72’s of 1977 combined, about 44% of those engines had automatics behind them. So the 4 speed was the more popular choice that year. If I would assume that 1978 started out the same way, & given there were only 1267 four speed Y88’s divided out by 12 months of production, that's about 105 cars per month, Right?

Seeing The automatic cars only had about a 4 month run, Wouldn’t it be a fair guess to say there was probably somewhere around 82 per month, times 4 months of production? Just using the existing numbers we have & the ratio we have from 1977, that would make the total of automatic W72 Y88’s cars somewhere around 328

I am only using the numbers that we know exist, & I am assuming the same ratio held true in 1978, But this just can’t be that far off.

Hopefully someday John Witzke will find that info.

Any thoughts?




68RT

[2manyT/A'S]

My GUT feeling is that there is SOMETHING fishy about the 78 T/A engine/transmission production figures/breakdowns that are published.(there's just too many question marks in that chart to believe ANY of it)
The W72 guy says that there were a TON of W72/auto T/A's made & I just don't see that.
I've been looking at these cars since they were NEW & base engine/autos OR W72 sticks seem to be much more common than W72/auto's.

Didn't the Y88 cars have a late release date,due to paint issues? I believe they only had a 7 month run.
The LATE release & the early cancellation of the W72/auto would confirm WHY we don't see many of them. (cause they didn't make many?)

Perhaps W72GUY can give us what he thinks the #'s are?

[turbo]

I can't imagine there were that many made. I have a 1978 Sundance Yellow W72 auto and a Platinum W72 WS6 T/A with Auto and I rarely see those combinations. I agree with 2manyT/A's the Y88 T/A's had paint issues and were only out half of the year, plus the W72/auto was discontinued earlier in the year. There must be a time frame of when the W72/auto's were discontinued and the end of the run of the Y88. I think the Y88 started the year off but was discontinued early because of paint problems. Pontiac then when back to the black S.E. That is what I have read. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Mr W72]

As a leading historian for the W72 400-cid Performance Package it has been quite a challenge establishing accurate production numbers for the 1977-79 W72 Firebirds. For a long time the W72 Formula production numbers didn't seem to exist. I have been fortunate to have a copy of Pontiac production numbers, thus helping me to establish some of the unknown W72 production numbers including the W72 Formulas. I have established 1977 W72 Formula production numbers, auto and 4-speed manual, 1978 W72 Formula 4-speed and 1979 W72 Formula 4-speed. And by the way 1979 W72 Formula production number is 367 not 346 as often quoted.

I will agree 1978 is difficult year to decipher. I would like everyone to forget they even read the widely published 1978 W72 Trans Am production numbers if 4,139 automatic and 4,112 4-speeds as these are not accurate or at the very least incomplete. I believe part of the problem centers around two production facilities and inconsistant record keeping.

Offically Pontiac records show Pontiac produced 34,886 W72 Firebirds during the 1978 model year. Of those 13,502 Firebirds came with M21 4-speed manual transmission. UPC code M21 could only be ordered with UPC W72. It is believed of those 12,692 were Trans Ams leaving just 810 Formulas. I feel fairly confident the 4-speed Trans Am and Formula numbers broake out correctly. This leaves 21,384 W72 automatic transmission Firebirds. Unfortunately there is no way to break out how many of those were Formulas and how many were Trans Ams. I have been able to establish 4,649 L78 and W72 automatic transmission 1978 Formulas. Again no way to tell how many of each...so far.

Automatic transmission 1978 W72 Firebirds were produced through the end of May 1978.

Actually 1977 W72 production was 28,668 Firebirds, of those 15,531 were automatic or approx 54% of production.

Contrary to belief, 1978 Y88 production started early Jan 1978 and lasted until the end of the model year. True some Y88 cars had paint issues and those were produced at the Van Nuys plant were water based paint was used. All 1978 Y82 and Y84 black and gold production halted around the last part of Jan 1978.

Wow! Tried to answer all. If anyone has other questions please post them

[68ragtop]

I think The paint problems might have only been at the Van Nuys plant? I used to think the same thing. Both of my cars are Norwood & were both March cars. I read somewhere that someone had a Y88 built in January. Maybe a Norwood car?

[68ragtop]

John, What drives me nuts is the production numbers assume the 65,000 Gold S/E's are all W72's automatics, & the L78's are unknown. Really, it should be the reverse. Even if we assume there were many more W72 auto's ordered over 4 speeds, it still would keep the production well under 1000 units, right? I think its ridiculous to think there are thousands of these cars that were available for such a short time. Usually if I see a Y88, It's an L78, sometimes a 403, rarely a 4 speed car & almost never an automatic.

Carl

[Mr W72]

The 1978 automatic Y88, Y82 and Y84 and non-se car 400-cid numbers are a combination of both engines. Sorry but there is no mathematical way to separate, at least at this time.

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by 68ragtop

I know I bring this topic up from time to time, But I can't figure out why there are so many sources
that have this same 78 T/A production numbers.

They list Y88 W72 4 speed cars as 1267 made. We all know this to be correct.
But the numbers show 6,519 W72 automatic Y88's! I Call complete B.S. on that one.

I know there are currently no sources to distinguish the production runs between the W72 & L78 automatic cars, But come on.. The 4 speed cars where available all year long & there were only 1267 of them. The W72 Automatics where discontinued in April, It seems to me, almost every Y88 that pops up is either a L78 std 400, or a 403, & rarely a 4 speed W72. In the past 5 years I have only seen about 4 W72 Automatics. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are enough of them out there, But based on these production numbers, they should be everywhere, & I know that is not true.

Based on all of the W72’s of 1977 combined, about 44% of those engines had automatics behind them. So the 4 speed was the more popular choice that year. If I would assume that 1978 started out the same way, & given there were only 1267 four speed Y88’s divided out by 12 months of production, that's about 105 cars per month, Right?

Seeing The automatic cars only had about a 4 month run, Wouldn’t it be a fair guess to say there was probably somewhere around 82 per month, times 4 months of production? Just using the existing numbers we have & the ratio we have from 1977, that would make the total of automatic W72 Y88’s cars somewhere around 328

I am only using the numbers that we know exist, & I am assuming the same ratio held true in 1978, But this just can’t be that far off.

Hopefully someday John Witzke will find that info.

Any thoughts?




68RT

I think Pontiac realized in April or May that they wouldn't have enough w72 engines left to continue making 4 speed trans ams if they continued to sell the w72 with the auto. As they had 2 other engines emissions certified with the auto trans and no other engines with the 4 speed, they stopped production in April after making 6500 or so w72 autos so they'd be able to supply 4 speeds for the rest of the year...But who knows. In any case 6000 or 1000 or anything of that nature isn't really a rare car anyway.

[68ragtop]

I never used the word rare, but I was talking specifically about the Y88's. Tell me how many Y88/ W72 Auto trans cars you have seen? I was looking for production numbers out of curiosity because you just don't see many of them. I have been following with these cars for many years, & I have seen more 4 speed W72 Y88's So either there were not a lot of them, or some bizarre coincidence that caused them to disappear.

[2manyT/A'S]

Originally Posted by 68ragtop

I never used the word rare, but I was talking specifically about the Y88's. Tell me how many Y88/ W72 Auto trans cars you have seen? I was looking for production numbers out of curiosity because you just don't see many of them. I have been following with these cars for many years, & I have seen more 4 speed W72 Y88's So either there were not a lot of them, or some bizarre coincidence that caused them to disappear.

I agree!
MY observations over the past 29 years on most common Y88 drivetrains.

- #1 base engine with (auto trans obviously)
- #2 W72/4 speed
- #3 403 auto
- #4 W72 /auto

As stated above,I still have a hard time believing that they actually made over 20,000 W72/auto 78 T/A's /Formula's.

Where are they HIDING them???

[Mr W72]

Trust me on the numbers. There are quite a few out there.

[68ragtop]

John, this was a quote you posted about three years ago. Does this info still hold true?

If this is still valid info, Then the Y88 W72 Auto's that were bought off the dealer lots would have been gone very early in 78, All that would have been left were the customer orders until March 20th? Seeing the cars were not in production until January of 1978, That's not much of a timeline. This has to explain the lack of seeing this combo.


-

Originally Posted by John Witzke

68ragtop,

The WS6 Trans Ams Special Performance Package did include the W72 engine at the very beginning og the 1978 model year. I have confirmed as early as Oct 1977 you could order a W72 Trans Am minus the WS6 package even though a memo from Pontiac dated Feb 22 1978 explains the seperation of the two packages.

In Feb 1978 dealers could no longer order the W72 engine with automatic transmission as stock (dealer inventory) orders. The deadline for customer orders was March 20 1978. The latest build date I have recorded for a W72 automatic car is first week May 1978 which would be in line with the cut off date.

Production of the Y88 Trans Ams began Jan 1978.

I believe you are refering to the window sticker or invoice when you mention the pricing. The build sheet just list options, etc with no pricing. A W72 Y82, Y84 or Y88 car produced with WS6 would be $151.00. Some window stickers or invoices may list the options separate, W72 $75.00 and WS6 $76.00. Or they may just say WS6 Trans Am Special Performance Package $151.00. I have a 1978 W72 Y82 invoice showing a ship date of 2/10/78 (1/23/78 build date) with only the $151.00 WS6 option listed. In comparison I have a build sheet for a base 1978 W72 Trans Am with WS6, build date 2/10/78 and the window sticker only list the WS6 option $324.00.

A non W72 special edition car with WS6 would be $76.00.

1978 W72 cars were produced at both Norwood OH and Van Nuys CA assembly plants.

Hope this helps.

John Witzke
POCI Tech Advisor
1977-79 W72 Performance Package
www.78ta.com/w72.htm

[Mr W72]

68ragtop, Pontiac produced 8,666 Y88 Trans Ams during the 1978 model year. Although not confirmed but we are fairly certian ther were 1,267 W72 4-speeds. The 6,519 number you see for automatics would include both L78 and W72. I will try to mathimatically give a estimate based on percetages

The only thing that has changed from my original post 3 years ago is I have recored a 1978 W72 automatic car produced late May 1978.

[bonneville Joe]

FWIW, my W72 Y88 4spd car was delivered on March 28th of '78.

[Skip Fix]

OK John the PHS documents show date shipped 5-23-78, expiration of transit time 6-1-78 and interest date 6-21-78. It was a Van Nuys car, maybe why the paint wore off in some areas (quarter panel and between T tops) 1 year later. So 3 month wait must have been late Februrary/early March.

Gay Pontiac paperwork looks like I picked it up around 6-17-78. $6998.00!

[boardog]

i am just about to start on a 78 y88 car with the ws6 and w-72 options, and a auto trans, phs shows a ship date of 3/28/78 and a exp of trans time of 4/13/78, so this car should have been built sometime in the 3rd week of march, this car must have been a custom order car, it is not loaded, it has tilt, a/c, and p/w, no radio, and the custom vinyl interior, all original and matching # car, same owner for 21 years. i can remember dealers would load all there cars up with options, it was very rare to see one on the lot with no radio

[PonchoV8]

This has probably been said already, but you aren't adjusting for the increased production in 78--the movie factor and the fact that the 78 was also the second yr of production for the same nose/body style, so it had more exposure time for the fad to catch on. I'd double you numbers and call it about right--for auto W72s. That's my intuition.

[68ragtop]

Originally Posted by PonchoV8

This has probably been said already, but you aren't adjusting for the increased production in 78--the movie factor and the fact that the 78 was also the second yr of production for the same nose/body style, so it had more exposure time for the fad to catch on. I'd double you numbers and call it about right--for auto W72s. That's my intuition.

Then what would the explanation be to why there is such a low amount of 4 speed W72's? Only 1267 of those, & they could be ordered all year long. But your saying there should be over 4000 Auto W72's when they had less then half of the time to be ordered? Like 2manyT/A's & I keep asking "Where are they if there are so many?"
Personally, I am surprised that there are only 1267 4 speeds. If I wanted that engine with an auto trans & couldn't get it, I would have ordered the 4 speed rather than going with the std engine. But that's just me. If I had to guess on the numbers based just on how many Y88's I have seen at shows & for sale, I would have thought there were less auto cars than 4 speeds. So I thought 2000 was very generous.

If it was 4000, then there would be more W72 cars than L78's & If that is the case, Then I will quit looking for those cars individually, & start looking for the guy who ordered well over 2000 of them & stuffed them all in a huge warehouse somewhere.

[PonchoV8]

Originally Posted by PonchoV8

This has probably been said already, but you aren't adjusting for the increased production in 78--the movie factor and the fact that the 78 was also the second yr of production for the same nose/body style, so it had more exposure time for the fad to catch on. I'd double you numbers and call it about right--for auto W72s. That's my intuition.

I don't think there are 2000--or 4000. Sounds like we're talking about different numbers. I thought you posted something over 300--like 345ish. I don't have time to reread your post right now though. I was thinking in the 700-800 range.

[Houndhunter]

Hi guys , I find this interesting Chat . My Daughter and I just purchased a 78 Y88 W72 Ws6 Package . It is very solid from Texas . I have to agree that there were fewer W72 Automatic Cars built also . I’m posting a pic of my trim tag with a 03D build date and PHS Doc on this car .if what you say is correct on the cut off date for ordering these cars looks like mine is very close to being one of the last built. I am currently looking for the build sheet . Hope this helps