[1980 TA]

I'm having trouble with my Lemans consistently starting when warm.

The car is a 1971 Lemans with a 455. The car has a powermaster mini starter and the solenoid is clocked down. The car has four tube headers and the clearance between the starter and the headers is around 1/2 inch.

When I bought the car this summer, it had a mechanical pump with no return line and a carb. When the car would sit for a while it would not start. It would click but not engage the starter.

Since I bought it, I have changed the battery cables from the reproduction cables to 2/0 copper for both the ground and the positive. I re routed the solenoid wiring lower on the block to get it farther away from the headers.

I converted to FITECH throttle body with an under hood sump fuel system with a return line.

I still have trouble with consistent hot starts. I thought at first it was having the PWM set to full and lowered it to 40. Car has been running better and started every time since that change until today. Temps were in the 60's today.

I drove around for an hour running errands and it started like it should every time. I got home and let it idle for a bit to check the idle settings as I had lowered the idle to 800. While checking the IAC counts I noticed that the temp was 159 so its running plenty cool.

I parked the car in the garage and went to drive it to supper an hour later and it would not start. The starter would click but not engage the starter.

I'm hoping a fresh set of eyes on the project can help.

The 455 in my TA runs a ford remote solenoid and I can go that route but like the cleanliness of the engine compartment without it.

Any time it clicks and won't start, time and or opening the hood and time and it will fire up when the heat fades. It does seem like it is worst when the car sits for more than 30 minutes when stopped. My first guess is heat soak from the headers as it takes time for the heat to build up under hood.

Any help is appreciated it as my wife loves the car, but it is frustrating to drive it and have to find a way to kill time until it wants to start.

[JLMounce]

Is your FiTech controlling your timing? If so, try changing your base timing in the system. The distributor base timing that you sync to is the timing that the engine will crank with. Dropping a couple degrees and re-syncing the distributor may help.

[george kujanski]

To be clear.....So the starter solenoid clicks but the starter does not crank the engine?

George

[1980 TA]

Ignition is a stock with a pertronix conversion. I'll check base timing again tomorrow as I don't recall exactly where it was. I did check it when I bought the car and it was in the range of 12 at idle and 32 total.

When it acts up, I turn the key and you can hear and feel a click and that is it. Its one click and then nothing. It will click once for each turn of the key if you want to keep trying to get it to start. I don't know how to describe other than a metallic click. Starter does not spin.

[25stevem]

The next time it does that turn the headlights and then go to start the car while someone looks at the lights.
If they dim a good amount then the armature in the starter is trying to spin the motor over.

If the lights do not dim then the starter is only getting enough current to kick out the drive gear, and this condition is at that point either due to the starter, or poor connections feeding the starter.

This assumes the battery is good and holding the needed charge.

[78w72]

besides all the other things mentioned... a cheap easy way to limit heat the starter sees on header cars is to buy a heat wrap or bag for starters, summit has some brands that dont cost much at all.

also verify the starter isnt going bad, 60 degree weather shouldnt cause a hot start issue just idling for a bit... & just a click when turning the key indicates the starter isnt even engaging or trying to turn the motor over. hot start issues are usually a slow cranking, not just a click, could be a bad solenoid or other internal starter issue.

i run a summit mini starter (reboxed powermaster) on a 467 10:75 with big 2" tube headers that are very close to the starter, with the summit brand heat wrap it never has a hot start issue even on hot summer days or long idle time in staging lanes at the track.

https://www.summitracing.com/search?...%20heat%20wrap

[Formulajones]

It may be time to check voltage drop throughout the starter wiring circuit. Everything from the switch, neutral safety and onward.

Wires don't like heat either, and will build resistance, especially with age.

Most of these cars now that I restore automatically get a new reproduction wire harness everywhere as these cars are beyond 50 years old, they have served their usefulness. Many harnesses have been butchered over the years and lived a pretty hard life anyway.

Also often overlooked, likely not your issue but worth mentioning, If a starter has a worn armature, it's a classic symptom of a no crank or clicking once they get warm. The problem with reman starters is that armatures are very seldom if ever replaced. They bench test just fine, but when put in service where subjected to heat, it's a different story. So people go out and buy a new reman only to find the same issue and then blame the OEM starters. .Hence the push to go mini.

Most mini starters work "OK" since they are all new internally. My suspicion is that you have another underlying issue.

[ta man]

Sounds like a starter issue.

[1980 TA]

My wife drove it to lunch today. 65 degrees and sunny. About 5-6 miles to lunch. Ate for an hour and when she went to start it, click. I had her turn on the head lights and click. Headlights didn't dim, flinch, or otherwise show any change to the naked eye.

Popped the hood and had her try it 10-20 seconds after opening up the hood and it fired right up.

[Formulajones]

Next time it clicks, hit the starter with a Tonya Harding a couple times and see if it takes off.

[25stevem]

Since the headlights where on brite that then means the starter itself is the problem or the battery cable connection to and from the starter is bad.

My money is on the starter being bad since even with a pretty poor cable connection feeding the starter it would give like 1 or 2 half spins to the motor.

[Kenth]

Sounds like burnt contacts in solenoid due to a weak battery.
I would check/replace the contacts and cut the solenoid plunger spring some for easier plunger pull when hot.

[RobbMc]

Carry a remote starter switch with you. The next time it just clicks, hook one of the two clips to the small terminal on the starter and the other to the positive battery terminal. If the starter cranks when you push the button on the remote starter switch, you have insufficient voltage at the small terminal during cranking.

This is caused by 50 year old key switches, neutral safety switches, clutch switches, connections at the fuse box, corroded wire terminals, etc. You can replace all the switches and wires but there is an easier way. Install a Mopar style starter relay. I use one for a '70 Cuda but they are all pretty much the same on Mopars from the late '60's to the '80's. They are small, easy to find and cheap.

Instructions on how to wire in a Mopar relay can be found in the wiring instructions at the bottom of this page: http://www.robbmcperformance.com/pro...c_starter.html

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by RobbMc

Carry a remote starter switch with you. The next time it just clicks, hook one of the two clips to the small terminal on the starter and the other to the positive battery terminal. If the starter cranks when you push the button on the remote starter switch, you have insufficient voltage at the small terminal during cranking.

This is caused by 50 year old key switches, neutral safety switches, clutch switches, connections at the fuse box, corroded wire terminals, etc. You can replace all the switches and wires but there is an easier way. Install a Mopar style starter relay. I use one for a '70 Cuda but they are all pretty much the same on Mopars from the late '60's to the '80's. They are small, easy to find and cheap.

Instructions on how to wire in a Mopar relay can be found in the wiring instructions at the bottom of this page: http://www.robbmcperformance.com/pro...c_starter.html

THIS^^^. On all the old Pontiacs I've owned and worked on, the issue was always the switch/purple wire side of the equation. In every case, fixing this fixed the problem. Am running 40+ year old GM stock starters in both GTO's with no issues at all. Headers on one, logs on the other. Jumping the solenoid at a no-start event will give you the answer.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

It may be time to check voltage drop throughout the starter wiring circuit. Everything from the switch, neutral safety and onward.

Wires don't like heat either, and will build resistance, especially with age.

Most of these cars now that I restore automatically get a new reproduction wire harness everywhere as these cars are beyond 50 years old, they have served their usefulness. Many harnesses have been butchered over the years and lived a pretty hard life anyway.

Also often overlooked, likely not your issue but worth mentioning, If a starter has a worn armature, it's a classic symptom of a no crank or clicking once they get warm. The problem with reman starters is that armatures are very seldom if ever replaced. They bench test just fine, but when put in service where subjected to heat, it's a different story. So people go out and buy a new reman only to find the same issue and then blame the OEM starters. .Hence the push to go mini.

Most mini starters work "OK" since they are all new internally. My suspicion is that you have another underlying issue.

[gokitty]

Sometimes after driving a while, I park the car, cut it off and leave it off for a short while . When I come back, turn the key....nothing. No click, no nothing. The horn will blow, etc, but no start. wait a while, try again and boom, away we go. Replaced the petronix, but still happens. I can feel your pain and aggravation!

[george kujanski]

i like the idea of carrying a remote starter switch with you. The problem is getting to the starter to connect it. One time i had an issue so i ran an xtra wire from the solenoid terminal on the starter where it would be accessible for the testing.
If it still won't crank but you get a solid click from the starter. the problem is in the starter/solenoid.

Make sure it's not in gear.....

george

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by gokitty

Sometimes after driving a while, I park the car, cut it off and leave it off for a short while . When I come back, turn the key....nothing. No click, no nothing. The horn will blow, etc, but no start. wait a while, try again and boom, away we go. Replaced the petronix, but still happens. I can feel your pain and aggravation!

The only thing getting rid of the Pertronix will do is increase your reliability when the engine does run. The distributor has nothing to do with the engine not cranking. What you are describing is classic high resistance in the purple S wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid.
I would bet that if you jumped the S and B+ terminals on the solenoid when it does 'nothing' that it will crank right over.

50+ year old wiring can still ohm out ok and look ok, but can build a lot of resistance when hot and can fail to provide the needed current.

[gokitty]

Thanks, GeeTeeOhGuy! Nothing more exasperating to a 67 GTO convertible than not starting!

[1980 TA]

I finally got around to installing the mopar relay last weekend. One change I made from the diagram RobbMc posted was to bring the cabin power out from the starter and hooked it straight to the battery as the whole starting wire harness was long enough to pull off the front of the valve cover and run over to the inner fender. I was able to hide the mopar starter under the fender and the harness parallels the battery cable nicely and hides well.

We have driven the car as much as possible since last weekend and not one starting hiccup. It seems like all of the electrical is working better with the main power feed getting away from the heat of the headers as well.

The only wires running down by the headers now are the positive battery cable and the 10 gauge starting wire.