[Jack Peters]

I'm talking about stockers and not highly modified.

If I own a GTO, SS, 442, 2+2, Torino GT, Taladega, Charger RT, Challenger RT, Road Runner, Belvedere, Cuda, and so forth, how does one call it a sleeper?

Just was reading another thread where they were disucssing 'poverty' caps to give a GTO a sleeper look. Not picking on anyone there but just wondered how a GTO with stickers all over it can be looked upon as being a 'sleeper'.

Even the lower models of the above mentioned had cid emblems on them but at least they did not have the high profile name.

Can some of you enlighten me? Just thought I would start this 'sleeper' discussion again.

My car was supposed to have stickers that had the cid on them but the factory (Freemont) forgot to put them on. Now that was a sleeper, but purely by accident.

[dreamingmuscle]

I usually identify a sleeper as a car that looks like it couldn't pull it self out of a wet paper bag. But when challenged blows every ones doors off.

Station wagon with wood veneer down the side and a 455 under the hood comes to mind.

[ahnuld]

i remember 3 muscle cars street racing and this little 4 door, my friends asked who i thought would win, and the light turned green and i was right, the hyundai pony won, it looked stock but i saw the diff and dual exhaust, it had a 351 windsor and a c 4,,thats a sleeper.the guys driving were in there 60's.

[lust4speed]

Dreamingmuscle, good description. Usually has bad paint, bondo, steel wheels maybe missing a hubcap, torn upholstery, automatic gear selector on the column. If it were a GTO, at least one of the chrome decals would be broken and ready to fall off.

[Jack Peters]

I am more refering to 'muscle cars' and not my old GTO with the 455HO w/RA IV heads that needed paint and was very quiet.

I keep hearing the sleeper look refered to when refering to what we would consider 'muscle cars' and I guess I just don't think it fits.

[poncho in a can]

I remember helping a guy build a sleeper. It was a bonneville, I think a 71. Anyway, it went on a SERIOUS diet. It got to be everyweek I would ask what John managed to remove fron the car. I mean hinges, seats, underbraces, holes drilles everywhere, made a fiberglass bumper,plastic side glass,gastank from a vega, aluminum pieces anything he could find at the junkyard. It actually was a bit dangerous but he managed to whittle it down to 3150 lbs.(last time I saw it) It was 455 with a turbo 350 trans (weight savings of course. And it was a sleeper. You could not tell unless you were up close to it.
he would win races but not if the competition inspected the car. I think he went as far a using drum brakes and aluminum wheels (hubcaps installed though). I think it ran low 13's (only a guess from the stopwatch and the "marks" at our street racing venue.)
It would not pass inspection at the dragstrip. Engine was mostly stock, jus serious "tuning". He wrecked it one night, no injury. parted it out and just started on a 67 chrysler Newport that went on a diet also.

[PONTIAC-ONE]

I woudn't consider any "Muscle car" a sleeper such as any GTO, T/A, old Chev SS, R/T's & Cudas and such no matter what wheels they have because they all came with the factory goods to make them faster than the average car at the time.
Example, a 442 no... but a base Cutlass with a 455 in it with hub caps could be considered a sleeper, a '71 455 HO T/A no... but maybe a base Bird with a flat hood & no spoilers and a RA V 480cid under the hood would be a sleeper.
...and theres always the 4 door sedans & wagons with 500+ HP.

[chipster]

A sleeper is just a car that goes a lot faster that it looks like it would. A musclecar can be a sleeper. If you have a GTO that runs in the elevens but looks all stock, then it is a sleeper, because you would expect it to be running in the 14's or high 13's.

[screamingchief]

My idea of a sleeper.

IMO the best "sleepers" should be a base model of the given car,not the high performance versions.

IE: Start with a lowly old LeMans,or if an F body,a base model bird,no GTO's or T/A's.

No major exterior alterations or enhancements @ all,leave it looking like the owner just drives the car,and really is'nt too overly concerned about the visual appearance.

And yeah,that often means no fancy looking (or aftermarket) wheels either.

Stock looking interior too,no big 5" monster tach on the coluum nor a slew of aftermarket gauges & switches all over the place,and no aftermarket shifters either,it has to look like an 80 year old grandma would be comfortable driving it.

Then stick the nastiest engine & driveline in it that you can without being too obvious.

No mega compression ratios that requires race gas,no huge a$$ rear tires,no super lumpy cams,no big ol' 3" exhaust systems,yadda,yadda,yadda.

It has to sound pretty close to "stock" @ idle.

And the engine must look pretty much 100% stock for that specific base model cars engine bay.

No aftermarket air cleaners or such,or visually obvious aftermarket intakes,carbs,heads or such,I mean they can be aftermarket dont get me wrong here,but they just cant look like they are not stock,so hide that holley carb under an OE dual snorkle air cleaner and grind the Edlebrock script of that intake,and be sure to paint it the OE engine color,no tall aftermarket valve covers either.

And no deep oil or trans pans,no kick a$$ suspension pieces,no roll cages,nadda.

It has to look like it's @ least 2-3 seconds slower than it really is.

IE: a 13 second car that looks like a 15 second car,or an 11 second car that looks like a 13 second car.

Often a good sleeper wont be legal @ the track either.

The required safetey gear for that often becomes an obvious give-away.

For instance,if I see a driveshaft loop,I know somethings up with the car.

So there you have it,that's how I view the definition of a sleeper.

FWIW

Bret P.

[chipster]

And I don't think that poverty caps give a car a "sleeper" look, that's more of a "strictly business" look. Full wheel covers and whitewall tires would be a sleeper look for a musclecar.

[screamingchief]

Originally Posted by chipster

And I don't think that poverty caps give a car a "sleeper" look, that's more of a "strictly business" look. Full wheel covers and whitewall tires would be a sleeper look for a musclecar.

Yeah,,,but I could never bring myself to go that far,,,LOL...

And besides,I really hate it when the full wheel covers pop off when the sidewalls start wrinkling up on the really hard launches.

That's a dead give-away too.



Bret P.

[HaloMedic]

My Sleeper was a 91 Volvo 242 GT 4-speed manual with a chevy 383 under the hood, I loved that car. the exhaust was so quite no one could tell, Had lots ok youngsters pull up along side in their ricers some with NOS, tail lights thats what they saw of me.

[Keith Seymore]

I've been told I could make some money on the street with this car -

Base Malibu, all steel, painted steel wheels, 555 cu in Chevy (all orange, including aluminum heads and water pump), full factory interior (including production shifter);

best ET 9.85 at 136 mph, naturally aspirated.

[Keith Seymore]

On more of a Pontiac note, I suppose this one counts, too:





Car went 12.40s in B/Stock, 12.20s in B/MP, back in the day as you see it here.

K

[The Champ]

Put me down for the "it's not a sleeper if it's a recognized Muscle Car"...

4 door car with a a 6 cylinder or 326/283 emblem on the side.

Very quiet exhaust. No lope to the cam.

Bench seat, column shift.

Bland color - tan for instance.

Steel wheels with plain jane caps or covers.

A dent in the fender would be good.

I think you get the idea...

[bigunde]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Put me down for the "it's not a sleeper if it's a recognized Muscle Car"...

4 door car with a a 6 cylinder or 326/283 emblem on the side.

Very quiet exhaust. No lope to the cam.

Bench seat, column shift.

Bland color - tan for instance.

Steel wheels with plain jane caps or covers.

A dent in the fender would be good.

I think you get the idea...

Agreed.. My poor mans 66 Tempest Custom has the 326 emblems on the fenders but has the 1970 455HO (some say HO , some doesnt as it is the 4 bolt with 64 heads).Not the fastest thing out there but has hurt quite a few Chevy and Ford feelings over the years.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Jack Peters

I am more refering to 'muscle cars' and not my old GTO with the 455HO w/RA IV heads that needed paint and was very quiet.

I keep hearing the sleeper look refered to when refering to what we would consider 'muscle cars' and I guess I just don't think it fits.

When you're GTO looks like a factory original concours restoration that maybe could run high 13's on a great day, but is capable of running 10's or 11's...that's a sleeper.

[rustedgoat]

I think chipster,screamingchief and baker have it right.

It's got to be much faster than it looks and sounds. Doesn't matter what year or make. If people will bet you're no faster than a 12.0 and you can do a 10.5 then you pulled it off.

Most of the PSMC and FAST cars could be considered sleepers but the quicker ones do sound like race cars. Slap on a hidden NO2 and your set.

.
What about a '31 Model A that had a 53 Olds w/Hydramatic - AND a sound system that played Model A 'music' at the traffic lights?? Did that qualify as a sleeper?

!954. A friend in H.S. (Bob Cain) had such a car and cleaned a lot of clocks in his day.
.

[Evil Stu]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

When you're GTO looks like a factory original concours restoration that maybe could run high 13's on a great day, but is capable of running 10's or 11's...that's a sleeper.

That's the ticket. Most of the street (ricer) crowd doesn't know the difference between a GTO and a T-37 anyway. Make the car look like it's owned by some resto-geek who cares about the date code on his carpet and you will take in most of the domestic guys too.

If the car is much quicker than the average show and shine Dairy Queen rubber burner, it's a sleeper, GTO badge or not. In fact, given the number of absolute slugs around dressed up as goats, the more you look like a power-parker the better.

IMO the trick to a really effective sleeper is not to make the car look like it's nothing (although that is one method); the trick is to use the other guys preconceptions against him. Don't try to make him think anything, LET him think what he wants, know what that is, and provide the cues that lead him from his own assumptions to the wrong foregone conclusion.