[Speargun]

1800 miles on the new build in the '67 Bird and I still can't get it to run cool.

During the day (75*-80*) the car will be pushing 210* - 215* (sometimes higher) after 15 miles at 55mph (<2500rpm) and a stop light or three.
At night (60*-70*) it will run anywhere from 190* to 205*.
Idling it usually stays around 190*.

So far I've tried 2 different radiators; a 4 row Champion & a 2 row, 3 pass, radiator.
I have 2 electric fans (Spal 11" & 12") with a shroud. (2300 cfm +/-)
High flow 180* thermostat.
FlowKooler pump that the divider plate has been clearanced on.
Total system capacity is about 3 gallons +/-. (Bottom filled 469cid with E-Heads @ 10.25:1)
2 quarts antifreeze
1 bottle "Water Wetter" & the rest distilled water.

I have an inline coolant filter and can see that the thermostat is opening when it should & the flow looks good.
There is an AC condenser a couple of inches in front of the radiator, but I can feel the fans pulling air through it pretty good. (AC is not hooked up yet.)

I did the divider plate today & was hoping that would cure my problem, but it didn't.

The only other thing I can think of right now is to step up to the better Spal fans which should give me around 3200 cfm, but will cost $370!!!

Anyone have any suggestions?

[ponyakr]

A Cold Case 2-row, with 1.25" wide tubes is supposed to cool better than a 4-row.

http://www.firebirdcentral.com/1967_..._p/rad-403.htm

I've read that a big Pontiac needs close to 5000 cfm air flow to cool properly.

The only auto elec factory fan I've read of that will come close to that is from a Lincoln Mark VIII.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-...radiator-fans/

Some dual truck fans will even exceed 5000.

So, if you wanna stick with elec fan, you may need to upgrade.

Many seem to have had good results with clutch fans, plus an HD clutch, such as the Severe Duty Hayden 2797.

https://www.amazon.com/Hayden-Automo.../dp/B000C3F3D4

[tom s]

Have you put a lazer temp gun on the inlet and outlets of the radiator?It will tell you how much temp drop your radiator is giving you.How is the timing.A lot of pontiac over heating comes from retarded timing.Just hints.Tom

[Speargun]

I have a 2 speed " Mark VIII" fan, but it won't fit without hitting my water pump pulley.

I currently have the timing set just below where I get spark knock.

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[Speargun]

I'll try a laser temp gun tomorrow

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[tom s]

you can also use it to look for hot spots around the engine.Thermo housing,at the water X over where it bolts to the head.Etc.Tom

[Sirrotica]

First of all are you sure the temperature gauge is accurate?

Is the A/C condenser old?

Look for bent fins, fins plugged with dirt in the A/C unit. If it's an old unit road dirt and insects etc. will stop a lot of air flow. Removing the condenser and thoroughly inspecting it as well as cleaning it may help your problem. A new triple pass aluminum radiator should have enough cooling capacity to cool your engine.

A chin spoiler will force more air through the radiator rather than letting it flow under the car.

A high flow thermostat, because the water will carry more heat to the radiator the more water that flows from the engine to the radiator.

High Flow Thermostats;

MotoRad High Flow thermostats are made of stainless steel and have enlarged openings to provide increased flow. MotoRad is the only thermostat manufacturer that produces true "High Flow" thermostats for today's higher performance engines. These parts also feature a triple-bridge design that increases strength, stability and reliability. High-flow thermostats also have a bypass valve that allows a small amount of coolant to circulate before fully opening.

If all of the above check out you may need to make a modification to have more capacity in the cooling system.

An auxiliary oil cooler will remove heat from the oil without having the coolant removing the heat from the oil.

I didn't see if your car has an automatic transmission. Divorcing the transmission cooling from the radiator will take some load off of the radiator.

IMO I don't like electric fans for cooling a Pontiac engine, as has been mentioned a belt driven fan will pull more air.

A few things to check if you haven't already checked them.

[ponyakr]

"...A new triple pass aluminum radiator should have enough cooling capacity to cool your engine..."

I've read that a triple pass can actually slow the coolant flow too much. Some say that a double pass will cool better than a triple pass.

I've never used either. So I can't say for sure.

[Sirrotica]

The triple and double pass radiators are used on oval track cars which are run a bunch harder than any street driven car and generate much more engine heat than a street driven car.

Thing is, the OP says a triple pass and a single pass radiator made no difference, changing the radiator again is not going to fix his problem, at least in my opinion.

I'm wondering if there may be a minor combustion chamber/head gasket leak into the cooling system. One of the tests to check for combustion gases in the coolant system may also be in order. Bubbles in a cooling system will not remove any heat and it doesn't take much gas in the fluid to cut the ability of the system greatly.

The man has thrown a bunch of parts and money at the problem so far and hasn't solved it. Time to find the source of the problem, not buy more parts, and spend more money.

Here's a good article on cooling system basics, good read and maybe it will ring a bell comparing it to the OPs problem:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Cooling/

[Ccass]

If you are running hot on the highway which is what I hear you saying, take the fans out of the equation. 50mph is plenty of air flow to cool the radiator. You either have a motor issue as pointed out above or more likely you have a combination of not enough volume of fluid or not enough pressure.


Suggestions:
Check your water pump pulley ratio. If it is wrong, that's your main problem.
Other Ideas:
Make sure you don't have obstructions in front of the radiator and all air flow is channeled into the radiator.
try removing the filter. It may be slowing the flow down to much
The combination of TriFlow and a Flow cooler water pump may be slowing the fluids down. Under certain circumstances, Tri-flow can create cavitation in the radiator. Essentially steam. Not good.
Important:
A 4 row aluminum radiator cools 15% less efficient than a two row aluminum radiator that has 2 1" tubes. There's also 1 1/8" and even 1 1/4" tube radiators. Take a look at every single high end radiator brand. All 'big' two row. ( I'm not saying that that Champion radiator shouldn't be able to do the job. It still should. I'm just reminding everyone that Champion has pulled off one of the best 'smoke and mirror' radiator campaigns of all time by taking advantage of our respect and admiration of the '4 row' radiator. For copper/brass, yes. Unfortunately, that's not the correct way to build an aluminum radiator.

[Speargun]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

First of all are you sure the temperature gauge is accurate?

Is the A/C condenser old?
...
A chin spoiler will force more air through the radiator rather than letting it flow under the car.

A high flow thermostat, because the water will carry more heat to the radiator the more water that flows from the engine to the radiator.

High Flow Thermostats;
...
I didn't see if your car has an automatic transmission. Divorcing the transmission cooling from the radiator will take some load off of the radiator.
...
A few things to check if you haven't already checked them.

- I have an AutoMeter mechanical gauge & have tried 2 different electric senders for the FiTech. The FiTech reads 10* hotter, but the AutoMeter is dead on when the T-stat opens & closes and responds much faster.
- A/C condenser is brand new and clean.
- I have a chin spoiler & the upper diverter/baffle plates for 400/AC cars installed although I haven't added a lower baffle yet.
- Standard to high flow thermostat = no change.
- Auto trans with its own cooler.

Originally Posted by tom s

Have you put a lazer temp gun on the inlet and outlets of the radiator?It will tell you how much temp drop your radiator is giving you.How is the timing.A lot of pontiac over heating comes from retarded timing.Just hints.Tom

- I might be getting a 5*-8* drop from inlet to outlet.
- Any more advance on timing & I get pinging.
(10.25:1 (185-190 psi) on 92 octane)
Since timing was my #1 suspect, I've played around with it a bunch. From well retarded to 12* - 18* initial, with & without vacuum advance, & 28* to 18* mechanical stops all in by around 3200 rpm.

Originally Posted by tom s

you can also use it to look for hot spots around the engine.Thermo housing,at the water X over where it bolts to the head.Etc.Tom

The metal surfaces on the cross-over, T-stat housing, sending units, & radiator tanks are all around 170* to 190* with the water temp around 200* +/- 5*.

Originally Posted by Ccass

If you are running hot on the highway which is what I hear you saying, take the fans out of the equation. 50mph is plenty of air flow to cool the radiator. You either have a motor issue as pointed out above or more likely you have a combination of not enough volume of fluid in your system or the fluid is passing through the system too slow.

Suggestions:
Check your water pump pulley ratio. If it is wrong, that's your main problem.
Other Ideas:
Make sure you don't have obstructions in front of the radiator and all air flow is channeled into the radiator.
try removing the filter. It may be slowing the flow down to much
The combination of TriFlow and a Flow cooler water pump may be slowing the fluids down. Under certain circumstances, Tri-flow can create cavitation in the radiator. Essentially steam. Not good.
Important:
A 4 row aluminum radiator cools 15% less efficient than a two row aluminum radiator that has 2 1" tubes. There's also 1 1/8" and even 1 1/4" tube radiators. Take a look at every single high end radiator brand. All 'big' two row. ( I'm not saying that that Champion radiator shouldn't be able to do the job. It still should. I'm just reminding everyone that Champion has pulled off one of the best 'smoke and mirror' radiator campaigns of all time by taking advantage of our respect and admiration of the '4 row' radiator. For copper/brass, yes. Unfortunately, that's not the correct way to build an aluminum radiator.

- Pulleys are from CVF Racing I bought in a group buy here several years ago &, as far as I know, are standard ratio.
- The only obstruction in front of the radiator is the grill & AC condenser.
- I had the same issues with both radiators before I added the filter. The filter is a see through type and and it looks like the flow is plenty fast.
- Due to the low temp drop across the radiator, 5* +/-, it almost acts like the flow is too fast, but it could also be due to cavitation. ???
I have an old 4 row brass radiator I can try, but I'm still suspicious of the timing and will go back & try to nail that down next/again.
I'll also see if I can find a shroud for the car & try a stock fan.

Thanks for all the input!

[tom s]

Will take a look when I get home,as I remember I get a pat bigger drop 20 plus drop on mine.It will be a few days.Tom

[ponyakr]

"...I'll also see if I can find a shroud for the car & try a stock fan..."


Most say that for max cooling you need a 7-blade clutch fan, with a good clutch, such as the Hayden Severe Duty #2797.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...an&_sacat=6000

https://www.amazon.com/Hayden-Automo.../dp/B000C3F3D4

Some prefer a 7-blade flex fan, such as the Flex-a-Lite 1818.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...an&_sacat=6000

https://www.amazon.com/Flex-lite-181.../dp/B000CNHFOE

[tom s]

I don't have a clutch fan on any of my 4 cars and have no cooling issues.Tom

[Speargun]

Here's a shot of the FlowKooler before clearancing the divider plate:



and after:



I found the aluminum pump on the right on Amazon if anyone is looking for a cast impeller water pump. The only difference I could see between it & the FlowKooler is the plate welded on the vanes.



GMB 130-1280AL OE Replacement Aluminum Water Pump

It was $38.75 on 4/17/17, but has since increased to $49.58.

[Sirrotica]

No reply on the combustion gases getting into the cooling system? There is a test to find out if combustion gases are getting into the coolant system.

A cracked head or a leak in a head gasket will cause the problems your seeing. No combination of hardware will be able to overcome a leak from the combustion chamber to the cooling system, even a tiny leak will cause gas pockets which transfer little to no heat.

FYI, coolant can't travel too fast through a cooling system heat is transferred due to temperature differential and happens instantaneously. The coolant traveling too fast through or a radiator or an engine to adequately transfer heat is a complete myth. Heat is transferred by electrons, so it transfers at the speed of electricity.

Taking this into consideration the water pump could be turning too slow, Pontiac overdrove the WP on the A/C cars to achieve better cooling with higher WP RPMs. If memory serves me the A/C cars were roughly 30% overdriven.

[ponyakr]

"...I found the aluminum pump on the right on Amazon if anyone is looking for a cast impeller water pump. The only difference I could see between it & the FlowKooler is the plate welded on the vanes..."


I think that is an older FlowKooler. Here's the newer one--I think. Could be wrong.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/b...w/make/pontiac

http://www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/...duct_info.html

"...GMB 130-1280AL OE Replacement Aluminum Water Pump...It was $38.75 on 4/17/17, but has since increased to $49.58..."

It's still cheap at Summit. They also list a high volume version, for 10 bucks more. Never used either one.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/g...w/make/pontiac

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/g...w/make/pontiac

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by Speargun

-

1. Pulleys are from CVF Racing I bought in a group buy here several years ago &, as far as I know, are standard ratio.
2. The only obstruction in front of the radiator is the grill & AC condenser.

3. I'll also see if I can find a shroud for the car & try a stock fan.

Thanks for all the input!

1. standard ratio is not enough info. You should check the ratio of your crank pulley vs your water pump pulley. An incorrect ratio may not be creating enough pressure to keep the temps down in the system. Remember that todays low octane fuel creates more heat. Pressure reduces heat. You want more pressure.

2. you should have at least 1" between the condenser and the rad to allow the radiator to have enough air flow.

3. While I am a big proponent of factory fans, clutches and shrouds, your highway overheating tells me none of these issues are at fault here. However, they'll certainly help your stop and go driving temps.

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

No reply on the combustion gases getting into the cooling system? There is a test to find out if combustion gases are getting into the coolant system.

A cracked head or a leak in a head gasket will cause the problems your seeing. No combination of hardware will be able to overcome a leak from the combustion chamber to the cooling system, even a tiny leak will cause gas pockets which transfer little to no heat.

FYI, coolant can't travel too fast through a cooling system heat is transferred due to temperature differential and happens instantaneously. The coolant traveling too fast through or a radiator or an engine to adequately transfer heat is a complete myth. Heat is transferred by electrons, so it transfers at the speed of electricity.

Taking this into consideration the water pump could be turning too slow, Pontiac overdrove the WP on the A/C cars to achieve better cooling with higher WP RPMs. If memory serves me the A/C cars were roughly 30% overdriven.

Sirrotica is correct. I gave some bad advice in my first post. I'm getting my info from one of our top tech guys and misunderstood his advice. I'm learning.

Anyway, the recommendations above are valuable.
1. check for head gasket leak
2. Check your pulleys as I mention in my last post.

[Jshiel50]

Keep it simple..... had the same issue with a punched out 455 olds. I switched everything over to higher flow stuff and used different size water restrictors with electric fans. The problem was that water was flowing TOO FAST and was unable to cool. went to a stock pump, stock style 175 thermostat and a off the shelf flex a lite flex fan. Never had an issue again. Day temps in traffic never above 180 and night temps held between 165 and 175.

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