[transam1972]

70 RA III I joke around a lot, but this is a very serious question....you have seen photos of my car...72 H.O. auto,air,pw,pdl.edf,tilt,am/fm stereo,tint,bumber guards,and rare Lucerne blue...58k,and I am the 2nd owner..except for sheetmetal,never dismantled....any sheetmetal replacemrnt is GM...trim,weatherstrip,console,etc is GM...suppose I get a paint job top level for $15k..finish the car myself.... do you mean 25k for an unrestored clunker!?....so my car finished would be worth about 60k?...I just want facts on T/A s and restoration...what will my car be worth finished?...yet I still believe,the less restored car is more valuable because that is ''survior'' territory....thanks, transam1972

[70RAlll]

72TA your car with just a repaint is not a full resto. A full resto is having the body dipped,edp coated then replacing any rusted metal. From that all original fasteners replated in manganese phosphate or cadmium, then assembled . Basically a full off frame every single piece restored-not using repo look alike bolts etc.. Some parts you can't help using repos,but fewer better. Even then, your car is 60K on a good, a real good day. You could probably bank on a complete resto as I described getting $45-50K. And as your car sits, maybe 25.. 72's ,of any GM variety, just do not bring much, market considers that after the muscle car time period. . Your car is probably more like a $15-20K as it sits. I could be off +/- 10-15% either way. ANd these are just my opinions. one guys angle on cars values.. I am sure I am the the ballpark with my numbers..

[transam1972]

RAIII....that's cool....I have avoided restoring parts that I felt did not need it, of course when I started to restore it, it was a different time...I got new fenders at a Pontiac dealer!...restoring a car vs. owning a low mileage original car is totally different...to do over again I should have kept looking for an original paint,low miles car...even in the late 70 s I looked at atleast 4 early T/As that were trashed then...one had no motor!..actually I am stuck with what I got...it will be interesting to see if I make any progress this year...thanks for the advice! peace transam1972

[pedlondarite]

So, back to the fender issue -

Could a good fabricator replace the section on a 73+ fender (the raised sections that the fender braces attach to) with metal fabricated to mimic the 70-72 fenders? I have repro fenders on my 70 and have often thought about that as I look to do a full resto one day.

[Norwood]

off course one could

[weranc55]

Originally Posted by Norwood

off course one could

Someone needs to make the brace section. I wonder who could do that?

[RicksGTO]

here's a link to the early fender brace swap on KeePat's '72:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=552306&page=3

You can see the hood hinge nuts are different on the early cars too.

[Norwood]

Originally Posted by weranc55

Someone needs to make the brace section. I wonder who could do that?

Its on my 25 page list

[pedlondarite]

Originally Posted by Norwood

Its on my 25 page list

Ah yes..."The List". I've got lists for both my cars. Evidence that you're never done.

Just like the quarter panel patches you can buy, someone should make 70-72 "inserts" that would replace the raised fender brace sections of the 73+ fenders.

Hey PY...HINT !!!

[necdb3]

That's the best and easiest way to do it (assuming you have the original fenders). Even if you don't have the originals, you can look for any early firebird fender.

Originally Posted by RicksGTO

here's a link to the early fender brace swap on KeePat's '72:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=552306&page=3

You can see the hood hinge nuts are different on the early cars too.

['ol Pinion head]

22 years, here, personally sourcing '70-72 rails & early tabs & changing them out when needed back home. Have no need for repop's, just give us some QUALITY full '70-73 1/4 panels.

Am about to throw away my over 20 year old 9.6 volt Makita reciprocating saw that saved my butt removing countless rails & tabs on the road. The old Makita is a toy compared to the cordless sawsalls have been using for the last 8 years.

[transam1972]

sometimes I think that I am the oldest person on the forum who remembers going to the PONTIAC dealer when there were such a thing...beginning in 1979 I still have early T/A parts in GM boxes that I purchased...that's why I have a N.O.S. SR shaker that fits fine...someone has a negative experience and all SR shakers are no good and only a born with shaker is acceptable...whatever, spread the wrong information...I ordered these fenders (and other parts) in 1990...the 1970 to 1972 T/A fender part # was discontinued..a new Trans Am fender made with a revised die to account for 1973 and later revisions for front bumper mounting...in 1990 any 1970 to 72 T/A replacement fenders could be on the shelf of a dealer, in a body shop or in someones garage...there was no World Wide Web to search for them...do I walk away from the GM parts counter and say..damn, I cannot get new fenders for my car...or do I buy brand new GM fenders made with the new die and alter the front valance bracket(which incedently is not used on the 72 valance)...the upper inner fender has a couple of extra holes and revised hinge mounting..somthing not seen when the hood is closed...for $150 a fender this is a visual thing that I can deal with...in 1990 I do not have unlimited funds to search the world for 1970 to 1972 fenders..did insurance companies tell customers in 1990, we cannot fix you 1971 Firebird because there are no fenders left for a car made from 1970 to 1981..of course not, you got a new,later made die fender..of all the reastoration parts that need to be made, we need the fender fooler?..I don't get it..perhaps I do not understand can someone explain the inner fender mystery to me?..is anyone actually recommending to take a spot weld remover drill bit to uninstall a factory welded upper inner fender to install a 40 year old used part because visually it is different...and if you do that, can you now say that those are the original fenders,when they are not?...my car has replacement GM fenders...if someone says that they are incorrect I will ask them do they mean that they are Camaro?

[Norwood]

They are not incorrect as they are GM Pontiac Trans Am fenders. They are not original and never can be, they can be made to pass for original though. I have done it a few times myself .

I drove around for 30 years with those same GM replacment fenders on my car and no one ever said anything to me about it. A few years ago I sold them for 1200.00 get that 30 year old non correct fenders 1200.00. My car now has its born with fenders back in place.

[transam1972]

thanks!!..I do get defensive because I bought these new...and all I see is pictures with circles and the word always used is incorrect...I also realize that if you did not live through the era, how could you experience it...unfortunately I do not even know how good the repop 70 to 81 fenders are...I believe they have some issues..I think any early Firebird owner should take advantage of the fact that GM produced that fender for 11 years plus extra..I know I did..the rich man can afford any part,I cannot... but I was there and bought these parts and things have changed in 24 years in the way of searching and buying parts..if people would start calling the parts replacement instead of incorrect I would feel better!

[njsteve]

The small, "incorrect for 70-72" brace section is very easy to swap out. You don't have to replace the entire brace section if you have a later fender with the similar hinge bolt area. I used the small, center section of a brace I got from Bill (70RAIII) and did it in a couple hours, on the car. Go to my "Part Duex" thread and you'll see it.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...695444&page=47

[pedlondarite]

Incredibly helpful post! Thanks for sharing, Steve. I've bookmarked this.

[transam1972]

I have always believed everyone is entitled to do to there car as the wish...I do not mean to fight with anyone on this..it is kinda funny because its a hot topic...I related my experience from 24 years ago..thats how I ended up with the fenders that I am currently going to use...someone paid $2000 for used T/A fenders recently...I need $2000 to go torwards paint and I already have fenders...all I wanted was to point out how a Trans Am could end up with the incorrect fenders...peace

[Norwood]

Peace Brother.....

[transam1972]

70RAIII..I was just over at Larry Navarro thread and he had a link to Wings Auto Art where I saw photos of a nut & bolt restoration like you were talking about...of course I know about those types of restoration and certainly some are better than others..but after viewing the photos my mind is definitely changed..for the better...I am new to this hobby in regards to that level of workmanship so I do apologize for not understanding about trying to relate values of a unrestored car vs. a restored car...I will never have to worry about ever having that done to my car as long as I own it, and I know the saying ..its only original once...but after viewing those photos and seeing how the right individuals with the proper skills & tools and working in an organized environment...if I had the offer of magically having my car redone like that, or keeping it original...I would opt to have it totally redone!!!..like the car being built again!!..and in some ways..better!!..after seeing those photos and understanding the rarity of 88 RAM AIR IVs and the money involved in a top level, professional restoration..I fully understand the selling price of $147k!!..an investment as Formulabruce pointed out...my ignorance in this area of the hobby lead me to comparing H.O. cars to the RA IV cars..I can appreciate your knowledge in this area now and your involvement in helping others in the restoration of all TRANS AMS..fortunately for me I bought my car at a time before the prices of these cars went up significantly...and I have been out of touch with currant prices and trends for over 20 years..I can now understand the correct/incorrect thing especially if someone has a lot of money tied up in a project..I am certain if I did I might not be as liberal thinking as I am now!!..look forward to your help & advice in the future..thanks!! trans am1972