#21  
Old 05-29-2021, 08:00 PM
KEN CROCIE KEN CROCIE is offline
Pontiac Performance Author
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Rancho Cucamonga Ca.
Posts: 1,522
Default

Looks like a 744 (RA3) to me.. I measured 32 deg. dwell @ max lift. The only Pontiac cam I know of with that blunt nose- but I'm sure I'll be corrected

__________________
GOOD IDEAS ARE OFTEN FOUND ABANDONED IN THE DUST OF PROCRASTINATION
  #22  
Old 05-29-2021, 08:07 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 31,294
Default

I ran a McKellar #10 camshaft in college in a basically stock 389 engine (but it was a fresh rebuild). The cam had the blunt nose profile (but slightly more camshaft lift, but the lash basically made it much like the 744 camshaft). It did have more duration vs the 744 camshaft though.

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward.
  #23  
Old 05-30-2021, 03:44 AM
Kenth's Avatar
Kenth Kenth is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Kingdom of Sweden
Posts: 5,457
Default

I have found most if not all raw Pontiac camshaft castings was made by CWC (Textron).
The final machining may have been done by Camshaft Machine Company or Melling?
CMC for aftermarket and Melling for OEM?

__________________
1966 GTO Tri-Power
1970 GTO TheJudge
http://www.poci.org/
http://gtoaa.org/
  #24  
Old 05-30-2021, 08:40 AM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 31,294
Default

Agree that the raw castings were made by CWC (Textron), in massive amounts.
I believe Camshaft Machine Company and Melling were two of the largest volume
OEM suppliers but TRW was also in the game as well as Sealed Power after they bought up a lot of companies that were small in size but doing some camshaft work.

BIG OEM would be GM, Ford, Chrysler (before the Europeans and Japanese either bought companies or established plants in the USA.

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward.
  #25  
Old 05-30-2021, 09:38 AM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 6,035
Default

Kind of steering back to the OP's question about this camshaft and what it is specifically: If you want to know 100% for sure what this camshaft is, there are two good choices. You can install it in any old Pontiac block with a degree wheel and a dial indicator and "roll it" to create a cam map or diagram. Takes about 1/2 hour if you have a block sitting around. Another option is to find a race engine shop that has a "Cam Doctor" to map the camshaft out of the engine. Again a pretty simple project. I would think BES would have a Cam Doctor, or Indy Cylinder heads. There are probably several hundred of them scattered across the country. You could probably contact the company and they could tell you who in your area might have one. I have one at my school acquired from Joe Mondello estate, but it's not up and running at this time. Software is way outdated and waiting for funding to at least get us out of the floppy disc era. Software was written for Windows 3.1. That's pretty old. Or we can keep guessing. Here is a link to the Cam Doctor: http://www.audietech.com/product/cam-pro-plus/


Last edited by mgarblik; 05-30-2021 at 09:59 AM.
  #26  
Old 05-30-2021, 10:11 AM
Stan Weiss's Avatar
Stan Weiss Stan Weiss is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,000
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
Kind of steering back to the OP's question about this camshaft and what it is specifically: If you want to know 100% for sure what this camshaft is, there are two good choices. You can install it in any old Pontiac block with a degree wheel and a dial indicator and "roll it" to create a cam map or diagram. Takes about 1/2 hour if you have a block sitting around. Another option is to find a race engine shop that has a "Cam Doctor" to map the camshaft out of the engine. Again a pretty simple project. I would think BES would have a Cam Doctor, or Indy Cylinder heads. There are probably several hundred of them scattered across the country. You could probably contact the company and they could tell you who in your area might have one. I have one at my school acquired from Joe Mondello estate, but it's not up and running at this time. Software is way outdated and waiting for funding to at least get us out of the floppy disc era. Software was written for Windows 3.1. That's pretty old. Or we can keep guessing. Here is a link to the Cam Doctor: http://www.audietech.com/product/cam-pro-plus/
You are talking about Audie's Cam Pro Plus. The original Cam DR (I don't have the hardware but do have the software) goes all the way back to MD-DOS.

Stan
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ab-camdr.gif
Views:	157
Size:	23.8 KB
ID:	567485  

__________________
Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php
Pontiac Pump Gas List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm
Using PMD Block and Heads List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm
  #27  
Old 05-30-2021, 06:05 PM
SD455DJ SD455DJ is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 3,253
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
Kind of steering back to the OP's question about this camshaft and what it is specifically: If you want to know 100% for sure what this camshaft is, there are two good choices. You can install it in any old Pontiac block with a degree wheel and a dial indicator and "roll it" to create a cam map or diagram. Takes about 1/2 hour if you have a block sitting around. Another option is to find a race engine shop that has a "Cam Doctor" to map the camshaft out of the engine. Again a pretty simple project. I would think BES would have a Cam Doctor, or Indy Cylinder heads. There are probably several hundred of them scattered across the country. You could probably contact the company and they could tell you who in your area might have one. I have one at my school acquired from Joe Mondello estate, but it's not up and running at this time. Software is way outdated and waiting for funding to at least get us out of the floppy disc era. Software was written for Windows 3.1. That's pretty old. Or we can keep guessing. Here is a link to the Cam Doctor: http://www.audietech.com/product/cam-pro-plus/
Mike, We are degreeing the cam tomorrow so will report our findings.

Dennis

  #28  
Old 05-30-2021, 06:23 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 31,294
Default

Don't be surprised if the Cam key way is machined slightly off from spec as it is a Melling camshaft.

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward.
The Following User Says Thank You to Tom Vaught For This Useful Post:
  #29  
Old 05-31-2021, 01:15 PM
Ram Air IV Jack's Avatar
Ram Air IV Jack Ram Air IV Jack is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 376
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN CROCIE View Post
Looks like a 744 (RA3) to me.. I measured 32 deg. dwell @ max lift. The only Pontiac cam I know of with that blunt nose- but I'm sure I'll be corrected
Ken,
Every time a discussion like this one pops up, I reach for my HO Racing books. Still some of the best Pontiac reference materials out there.

Thanks again!!!

  #30  
Old 05-31-2021, 01:24 PM
padgett's Avatar
padgett padgett is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 467
Default

a) Get Pete McCarthy's Book
b) #10 is a Mechanical cam. 744 is a hydraulic RA with manual transmission.
c) Pontiac marketing was playing all kinds of games with models and HP in the early 70s. Engines with two different cams would have the same ratings in a specific model (A-body) and different ratings for that same engine/cam in another. And then there were the carb games. (bend a tab, gain 30 hp).

__________________
Orlando - Where rust must be imported.
Web Site


  #31  
Old 05-31-2021, 03:42 PM
b-man's Avatar
b-man b-man is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sunny So Cal
Posts: 16,411
Default

Pictures of a NOS 068 ‘S’ cam that’s currently and probably forever residing in my ‘64 421 HO.

Note the shape of the 068 exhaust lobe (302 advertised duration) pictured. It should look nearly identical to the intake lobe (301 duration) on a 744 cam.

That shape doesn’t match up with the intake lobe on the 521596 cam. I seriously doubt that the pictures of the 541596 are of a cam that’s really a 744 cam just from looking at the visual cues.



068 Intake lobe - 288 duration.



068 Exhaust lobe - 302 duration.



Intake lobe on the 541596 cam - 308 duration - clearly wider and flatter over the nose than the 302 duration 068 exhaust lobe.




__________________
1964 Tempest Coupe LS3/4L70E/3.42
1964 Le Mans Convertible 421 HO/TH350/2.56
2002 WS6 Convertible LS1/4L60E/3.23
  #32  
Old 05-31-2021, 04:30 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 31,294
Default

I have to agree with B-man on this one as I ran one for years on the street, it is now sitting "used" on the shelf.
I have run the 744 High Lift Camshaft in several engines, (sold by Wolverine Cams) and made by CMC and it
thumps slightly different vs the old 541596 cam.
The 068 cam is a "milk toast" hydraulic profile that barely thumps at all. No comparison in my mind. The 744 high Lift CMC cam actually looks somewhat like a Ram Air 4 camshaft to a person who has seen them side by side.

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward.
  #33  
Old 05-31-2021, 06:14 PM
padgett's Avatar
padgett padgett is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 467
Default

just some thoughts but for 1970 at least, mild to wild was 067, 068, 744, 041. In General the more cubes, the more cam you could have. 067 and 068 were mostly for automatics, others were best with a manual trans. All were hydraulic. I have a 744 in my Judge. After 72 except for the SD, cams were mostly ded.

__________________
Orlando - Where rust must be imported.
Web Site


  #34  
Old 05-31-2021, 06:39 PM
b-man's Avatar
b-man b-man is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sunny So Cal
Posts: 16,411
Default

The 744 (best known as the Ram Air III cam) was phased out mid year 1969 and was replaced with the 068, nothing built in 1970 came with the 744.

455 engines only came with the 067 and 068 cam, so more cubes didn’t generally dictate a bigger cam.

The biggest cam (041) went into the 400 RAIV.

__________________
1964 Tempest Coupe LS3/4L70E/3.42
1964 Le Mans Convertible 421 HO/TH350/2.56
2002 WS6 Convertible LS1/4L60E/3.23
  #35  
Old 05-31-2021, 06:45 PM
padgett's Avatar
padgett padgett is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 467
Default

Agree, 744 was replaced by the 068 in late 69. I just like the 744.

__________________
Orlando - Where rust must be imported.
Web Site


  #36  
Old 06-02-2021, 11:31 AM
Ponchy's Avatar
Ponchy Ponchy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brainless Island, Wa.
Posts: 72
Send a message via Yahoo to Ponchy
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-man View Post
The 744 (best known as the Ram Air III cam) was phased out mid year 1969 and was replaced with the 068, nothing built in 1970 came with the 744.

455 engines only came with the 067 and 068 cam, so more cubes didn’t generally dictate a bigger cam.

The biggest cam (041) went into the 400 RAIV.
I don't think he was saying that.
I reads to me that he was saying that a larger displacement engine can have better driveability with a larger cam (compared to a smaller displacement engine using the same cam), but as you mentioned, it doesn't necessarily mean the larger displacement engine will have a larger camshaft.

__________________
  #37  
Old 06-02-2021, 01:54 PM
SD455DJ SD455DJ is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 3,253
Default Degreed the #10 Cam...Results

OK, so we have the results…Dan degreed the cam and the specs are amazing…no doubt it is a #10 grind: 235*I/248*E/114* LSA @ .050”; intake ICL 106*; exhaust ECL 122*, so intake is ground 8* advanced; 322*I/361*E @ .006”; .416” I/.419” E @ 1.50 RR. Yes, you read right 322*/361* @ .006” lift on several lobes! I imagine with the .020”/.022” lash clearances would bring those numbers down closer to the 308*/320* numbers. Dan didn't get any duration numbers at .200".

Dennis

The Following User Says Thank You to SD455DJ For This Useful Post:
  #38  
Old 06-02-2021, 02:13 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 31,294
Default

Great work by all. Looks like you have a good #10 camshaft from Melling.
Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward.
The Following User Says Thank You to Tom Vaught For This Useful Post:
  #39  
Old 06-02-2021, 03:11 PM
Mr Anonymous's Avatar
Mr Anonymous Mr Anonymous is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Waynesville, OH
Posts: 394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by padgett View Post
c) Pontiac marketing was playing all kinds of games with models and HP in the early 70s. Engines with two different cams would have the same ratings in a specific model (A-body) and different ratings for that same engine/cam in another. And then there were the carb games. (bend a tab, gain 30 hp).

From a friend who worked at Oldsmobile, they often took the curb weight of the car, divided by "X" (10, in a lot of cases), and that was the HP rating.

Yes, it was marketing and BS. All these hotrod parts only gain 5hp, but changing this one meaningless thing is 40hp in another model.

__________________
Clutch Guys Matter
_______________________________________
53 Studebaker, 400P/th400/9"
64 F-85
72 4-4-2 Mondello's VO Twister II
84 Hurst/Olds #2449
87 Cutlass Salon
54 Olds 88 sedan
  #40  
Old 06-03-2021, 08:20 PM
SD455DJ SD455DJ is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 3,253
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-man View Post
My NOS Melling RPC-2 cam (541596) has nothing stamped on the nose.

The various websites and books we use for reference are all great guides but are of course not 100% accurate.

B-Man, did you ever degree your cam? I'd be curious if your cam is identical to this one with the 'K' stamp. I imagine this one may be one of those infamous 'mis-stamps'.

Dennis

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:48 PM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017