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Old 10-03-2020, 01:33 PM
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Default anyone using fuel injection with the 041 cam?

Just wondering if FI like FITech or Holley when used with the 041 cam (no Rhoads lifters) tends to overcome the so-called driveability problems associated with these cams?

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Old 10-03-2020, 07:35 PM
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I doubt it. This is one miserable cam on the street. All Rhoads do is make it miserable and noisy.. Full timing is mandatory..

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Old 10-03-2020, 08:02 PM
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What cubic inch?

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Old 10-03-2020, 08:31 PM
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Are we talking 455??
With cubes and at least a pinch of compression it shouldn't be a problem at all for the EFI. That cam comes with about a 113-114 LSA and 230 @ .050 is really nothing for a 455 anyway. If installed correctly with about a 109 ICL, and the engine is tuned correctly, it'll make 12-14 inches of vacuum, and more if you use a bleed down lifter.

I'm running a 242/248 @ .050 with a much tighter 110 LSA using Holley EFI in a 454 and it idles very nice with no issues.

Dad is using a much larger 261/265 @ .050 on a 112 LSA in his engine with the same Holley EFI and it's handling idle fairly well, just needs a little more tweaking.

Here are both of those cars idling. They are way more rambunctious than an 041 camshaft.

https://youtu.be/HQ7e9o4qAaI

https://youtu.be/M-TsdxjE144

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Old 10-03-2020, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ponjohn View Post
What cubic inch?
428

I had a sbc350 in a Studebaker that weighed about like an early GTO. Used a TH350, Stude/Dana 44 with tapered axles and 3:08 gears. ported 292 heads, RPM intake, Holley 4779C, and a Comp XE 284H (240*/246*@.050) cam. It was a real runner with no "low end bog" and did well on Grudge nite at the strip (no time slips for grudge runs). Hence I find it perplexing when I hear guys here with 400-455 engines real concerned about a cam with more than 210* @ .050 when I ran a "big" cam in an engine with 50-100 fewer cubic inches. I find myself agreeing with Formulajones on this topic. The 041 has really mild .050 figures and arguably the advertised duration is rather lengthy compared to the aftermarket cams which could give a rougher idle than my 284H cam.

I'm actually looking at the Voodoo 704 cam for my 428 as I already have my HiLift Johnson lifters (HFT) in place for my cam swap. Still the 041 is tempting as it is a Pontiac cam and I can price it much better than the Voodoo. Thought I would throw this thread out for thoughts on it. Thanks all.

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Old 10-03-2020, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 1968GTO421 View Post
428

I had a sbc350 in a Studebaker that weighed about like an early GTO. Used a TH350, Stude/Dana 44 with tapered axles and 3:08 gears. ported 292 heads, RPM intake, Holley 4779C, and a Comp XE 284H (240*/246*@.050) cam. It was a real runner with no "low end bog" and did well on Grudge nite at the strip (no time slips for grudge runs). Hence I find it perplexing when I hear guys here with 400-455 engines real concerned about a cam with more than 210* @ .050 when I ran a "big" cam in an engine with 50-100 fewer cubic inches. I find myself agreeing with Formulajones on this topic. The 041 has really mild .050 figures and arguably the advertised duration is rather lengthy compared to the aftermarket cams which could give a rougher idle than my 284H cam.

I'm actually looking at the Voodoo 704 cam for my 428 as I already have my HiLift Johnson lifters (HFT) in place for my cam swap. Still the 041 is tempting as it is a Pontiac cam and I can price it much better than the Voodoo. Thought I would throw this thread out for thoughts on it. Thanks all.
I like the 041 in a 428, as long as it's no less than 10:1 compression, it'll run fantastic. I'm certain Cliff has done that combo a few times.

I did a 224 @ .050 cam in a 428 with a 114 LSA, with High Lift Johnson standard lifters and 9.7:1 compression and it's baby smooth, excellent vacuum and snappy throttle. My feeling is that it's really too small of a camshaft even for the 428.

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Old 10-04-2020, 01:18 AM
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I doubt it. This is one miserable cam on the street. All Rhoads do is make it miserable and noisy.. Full timing is mandatory..
Absolutely. Well said!

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Old 10-04-2020, 01:24 AM
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9:1-CR 455...have run hydraulic flat tappet cams larger than the 041 on the street, with the largest being 238/243 @ .050" on a 112-LDA. The only miserable experience was for the Chevy guys who had to look at my tail lights so often.

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Old 10-04-2020, 07:59 AM
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When comparing cams keep in mind the seat duration (advertised) will probably be rated at a different tappet lift than the original factory 041 cam.

.

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Old 10-04-2020, 09:55 AM
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I've used the Melling version which works very well in these combos.

I know most here like the Crower version and have had excellent success with that as well.

I'm not sure how the 2 compare with seat duration and .006 numbers but I'm betting that's been talked about here at some point before.

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Old 10-04-2020, 10:09 AM
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In the past I had been told by the Crower tech department two different answers, rated at .005" tappet lift and .006" tappet lift.

So about two years ago I called Louis, reported to be the head cam designer at Crower on this subject. I asked at what tappet lift do they rate their hydraulic flat tappet cams at..... in essence he said it did not matter and suggested not much happens regarding air flow until above 1000 rpm or so anyway and then gave an explanation. And he further commented that it will vary with their different cams, they are not all the same. He actually asked, are you trying to use it for input into the "Wallace" program !

He asked what cam was I interested in, so for an example I mentioned the 60919. He looked up his master design profile numbers for it. He said that specific cam is designed at .005" tappet lift for 301 degrees duration. He further reported it has 139 degrees at 0.200" tappet lift. He said the most important are the .050" and .200" numbers. He further commented it could be as much as 306 degrees and 142 at .200 lift, and to be honest I did not fully understand his reason or I misunderstood on those numbers. So take that with a grain of salt here !

But in his detailed discussion he did confirm my comment that the amount of duration actually delivered at the valve under running conditions will vary. The hydraulic lifter gives under running conditions for a host of reasons... rpm, oil temperature, weight of oil, etc.

He confirmed the lobe lift is 0.3130", but when I asked about the lobe separation he stated it was 112 and not 113 as sometimes touted.

Don't shoot the messenger here... it was a lengthy conversation and this is in short and I hope I got it correct. I wish I had a transcript !

Also mentioned in the thread when we discussed this it was pointed out to keep in mind during manufacture the grinding wheel size will be a minor factor in the end result. Usually they are within 1 degree of design. Also the master pattern will be most accurate to a certain size core. Example, a Pontiac journal size is not the same as a small block Chevy. Many catalog specs are based on a Chevy size and the grinder has to take this into consideration.

.

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Old 10-04-2020, 10:36 AM
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Also I should point out over the years with information posted for the Crower 60919 cams advertised duration besides the catalog 304 we have seen 285, 286, 301 and 306 ! I said back then, and I suspect today, another phone call to Crower tech may lead to yet another number, and also we might be back to a 113 lobe separation.


.

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Old 10-04-2020, 12:10 PM
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Even without Rhoads lifters, a FiTech shouldn't have issues with that cam in the car. I'd try cam profile 3 to start with, but it may want profile 4 depending on the cubic inches of the engine and the compression it's making.

The FiTech without a ton of tinkering will work with cams that produce as low as about 5" of vacuum. There have been individuals that have had success on engines making less than that, but at that point you're manually tuning a lot and it would make more sense to go to a full fledged FI system like a holley dominator, ms3 pro etc.

I won't specifically comment on the holley sniper because I don't have experience with that model nor have I looked at how well it does or does not do in hot cammed applications. My assumption would be it would be fine, but it's just that, an assumption.

FWIW when I first put the FiTech on my 455, that engine made about 8" of vacuum with a comp 280H at an altitude of 4500 ft. Never any issues with fueling at that vacuum level.

I wouldn't at all be afraid of an 041 cammed 428 with one of these systems. In fact if you also utilize timing control from the unit, you'll be able to give it a tone of idle timing which can help with it's idle manners. Setup like that, it might actually behave a bit nicer than you'd expect.

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Old 10-04-2020, 02:23 PM
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Thanks all. This is really good info to have. Appreciate it

(Considering the 041 has an overlap of around 83* while the Voodoo 704 has an overlap of 60* , I can see where gearing and convertor would be definite careful considerations)

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Old 10-05-2020, 06:21 AM
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'Just wondering if FI like FITech or Holley when used with the 041 cam (no Rhoads lifters) tends to overcome the so-called driveability problems associated with these cams?"

Poor choice for a 400 build unless you have pretty high compression and plenty of converter/4speed and gearing.

Excellent cam for a 455 build but I still put Rhoads lifters on them especially if they are lower compression.

For the most part the 041 cam is too much cam for a 400 build. The engineers at Pontiac knew this and it was used exclusively on the RAII and RAIV engines. Every single one of those I've worked on over the years had very small combustion chambers and a lot of compression and they need it.

As far as the Crower 60919 cam goes, haven't used once in about 10 years but every single one that we purchased came with a cam card clearing stating 304/316 advertised, 231/240 @ 050", and 113 LSA. The recommended ICL was 109. Intake open point (can't remember that one exactly) but it was around 7-8 degrees BTDC @ .050".

At EXACTLY the same time the specs on their website showed the 60919 cam as having a 112 LSA and to put the ICL at 108 degrees.

IMHO at least thru 2008 when we purchased the last 60919 cam from Crower that they were buying SPC-8 cams from CMC and reboxing them. This is very common in that industry and still going on today with just about every single company out there making and/or marketing camshafts The reason I say that Crower was re-boxing those camshafts is that there was no advance ground into them and every single one installed came in around 112-113ICL, not down at the 109ICL they recommend on the cam card and website. If you go on their sight today they clearly state that "4 degrees advance has been ground into this camshaft" and that the ICL should be at 108 degrees.

So it's quite possible that 60919 cams currently being sold may actually be ground by Crower and not "re-boxed".......FWIW.......Cliff

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Old 10-05-2020, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 1968GTO421 View Post
Thanks all. This is really good info to have. Appreciate it

(Considering the 041 has an overlap of around 83* while the Voodoo 704 has an overlap of 60* , I can see where gearing and convertor would be definite careful considerations)
This is were cams get confusing. It is so easy to take different tappet ratings then compare overlap attributes. It makes it look really really lopsided. In reality they are much closer than that.

At .006” tappet lift a 041 cam (the version melling sells as a Spc-8) has very close 70.5* of overlap.

At .006” tappet lift a Lunati 704 has very close to 65* of overlap.

Combining the 041s overlap with the opening and closing events makes it a pretty soggy cam in 400. The 455 fairs better. I think a 428 would be ok.

The rocker arms have an impact on this stuff to. If your want to make a 041 idle snarly run it with some 1.8 rockers.

The Crowers 60919s I have had (lately) were kind of in between those 2. If you have a 30 year old 60919 in an engine it might be different. No one changes the specs and keeps the part number the same though(LOL!).

The big difference between those cams is the way the Lunati is ground. It has a slower closing ramp and a faster opening ramp. It will send a little stronger vaccuum signal up to the FI system than if it were ground symmetrically like the 041 or one of the Crowers. Compared to a symmetrical cams (like a 041 ), the 704 will act like it is ground wider than 110, it will rev higher than what you would expect looking at the specs. When the 704 is widened out to a 112 LSA from the off the self 110 LSA it barely lopes in a 455. By my definition of barely anyway.

The seat timing “does not matter” and just look at the .050 numbers is kind of an ugly way to look at a cam profile. That means if a cam like a comp cams XE274 (230* @.050) was ground to have the same LSA and ICL as an 041 cam they would run the same, make the same vacuum, make the same power ect. The pressure differentials are always the highest at those low lifts. They have an impact on how the engine runs and operates. Especially at lower engine speeds.

I don’t have any experience with 421s or 428s. All the engines I have done were either 3.75” or 4.21 and 4.25”. Depending on the head flow and the compression there could be a place were the 041 might out shine other cams that have less seat timing. There are most likely better cams picks than the 041, but if it is for nostalgia it should work fine with most FI setups.

The Holley sniper you can go in and turn the closed loop off on the idle and set everything manually to get the idle you want. Then record those parameters and train the ICU instead of using the self learning features. I think Fast has that option too on some systems. Not sure if that is an option on the FI tech. On a really big cam your better off dialing in the idle that way than using the self learning feature. But that would be more something you would need if the 041 cam was going in a 303 RAV.


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Old 10-05-2020, 12:10 PM
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The seat timing “does not matter” and just look at the .050 numbers is kind of an ugly way to look at a cam profile. That means if a cam like a comp cams XE274 (230* @.050) was ground to have the same LSA and ICL as an 041 cam they would run the same, make the same vacuum, make the same power ect. The pressure differentials are always the highest at those low lifts

Strongly disagree.

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Old 10-05-2020, 02:55 PM
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Strongly disagree.
Which part Pastry?

I did not mean to imply the seat timing are the most prominent thing to look at. Just that it is kind of ugly to overlook them.


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Old 10-05-2020, 05:02 PM
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I'm running a 455 with Rhodes lifters and the 041 cam topped with a FITECH. It idles at 800 rpm with 15-16 inches of vacuum. It idles smoother than my 6.1 Hemi in my 2007 charger. My wife drives it but does complain about the clutch but has no problem with it.

I do run the timing control which did help smooth out the idle.

I get 22 mpg on the highway with the AC running as well. Around town is pretty consistent at 10. IF I really pay attention to how I drive it I can get 12-14.

I've got no complaints with the 041 and fuel injection.

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Old 10-05-2020, 06:28 PM
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I did not mean to imply the seat timing are the most prominent thing to look at. Just that it is kind of ugly to overlook them.
Got it, I overlooked the words "ugly way" in your first comment (16).

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