[1965gp]

The space saver Rallye II thread got me thinking... we have an insane amount of knowledge here; what have you seen that you believe to be factory/accurate/whatever that most would say never existed?

The Orbit Orange 71 Judge is a very good example of this as is the 69 TA with a sunroof that two PY members were talking about in the space saver thread.

I’ve had several people tell me there is no way my Silver 70 LeMans came from the factory with dark green interior- but my dad bought it in 1975 so I’m pretty sure it’s true.

Let’s hear the stories- even if you’ve told them a time or two!

[Half-Inch Stud]

1969 Firebird with Tan Leather Interior. one of 13 made across all 67-69 Birds and Camaros. All 13 leathers were Norwood Palnt F-bodies.

So the driving experience was of mandatory seatbealts because one slight steering wheel flick and your butt was slid out of the seat. Easy to advize passengers to buckle-up!

[einstein]

Gonna have to hijack the thread on this claim. I find that number difficult to believe. You've had a leather '69, I have a leather interior from a '69, I've seen at least another 5 or 6 leather interior cars either on line or in person, and there's chatter that most or all of the Comanche Firebirds had leather and I've heard rumors of roughly 50 Comanches having been built. Then there are the '68 leather birds and Comanches...

You have any documentation to back up the claim, Half Inch?

[comanchefirebird]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

1969 Firebird with Tan Leather Interior. one of 13 made across all 67-69 Birds and Camaros. All 13 leathers were Norwood Palnt F-bodies.

So the driving experience was of mandatory seatbealts because one slight steering wheel flick and your butt was slid out of the seat. Easy to advize passengers to buckle-up!

A good number of leather interior Firebirds were shipped to Canada in 68-69. At a minimum, all of the Comanche Firebirds sold in Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto had factory leather interiors, I've found 3 of the 13 1968 Firebird Comanches sold and all have the saddle leather interior. I've located about a dozen of the 1969 Comanche Firebirds, including mine, all have the gold leather 293 code interior.

Steve

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

1969 Firebird with Tan Leather Interior. one of 13 made across all 67-69 Birds and Camaros. All 13 leathers were Norwood Palnt F-bodies.

So the driving experience was of mandatory seatbealts because one slight steering wheel flick and your butt was slid out of the seat. Easy to advize passengers to buckle-up!

Originally Posted by einstein

Gonna have to hijack the thread on this claim. I find that number difficult to believe. You've had a leather '69, I have a leather interior from a '69, I've seen at least another 5 or 6 leather interior cars either on line or in person, and there's chatter that most or all of the Comanche Firebirds had leather and I've heard rumors of roughly 50 Comanches having been built. Then there are the '68 leather birds and Comanches...

You have any documentation to back up the claim, Half Inch?

The guy I bought my '62 GP from had another '62 GP with "leather" interior and tilt wheel along with every option.

For those that don't know, '62 GP's came with a vinyl interior and tilt wheel wasn't available until 1963.

There was no mistaking this car (with its original paint), so much so that it was the one I tried buying from the guy but he wouldn't sell.

[poncho-mike]

I ran into a 4-dr hardtop Lemans with a 455HO engine in it about 1983 or 1984. I was out driving in my 1970 Trans Am 4-spd at the time. It was pretty heavily modified, I was running a 455 block with 428 crank and Ram IV top end, and the car sounded wicked. The guy approached me in a parking lot and we got talking about cars. His was an automatic 4-dr Lemans with lots of options. Anyway, it definitely had the aluminum intake and round port heads. I wish I had checked the engine codes, but I didn't. He told me he needed a family car and something capable of towing his boat, so he ordered the 4-dr with the HO engine. I've been told by several people Pontiac never built a 455HO 4-dr car. I have no way of knowing if he swapped the top end onto a D-port block, or maybe he bought an entire engine somewhere, but it definitely had a round port top end.

There were a lot of hot cars in that area. Within a 20 mile radius, I knew of a 70 Ram IV Judge, a 70 Ram IV GTO, two 74 SD455 cars, a 71 Judge, my 69 Firebird with a 69 Ram IV Judge engine, a 69 Trans Am Ram IV, and several D-port Judges. That didn't count my 71 & 72 T/As I had picked up and the 70 T/A that somehow acquired a Ram IV with a SR block.. This was not a large city, it was a small town out in the country.

I have no idea whatever happened to the car. Since we met in a Lowes Home Improvement parking lot, I have no idea where he lived.

Mike

[mgarblik]

I owned and enjoyed a 421 HO 1966 Catalina 9 passenger station wagon. Pontiac factory literature shows the HO engine NOT being available in a Catalina wagon and NOT being available with AC. My car was purchased from the original owner immediately after he traded it in. Looking over the car when purchased, it just didn't have the look of a vehicle that had ever been messed with in any way. Too much original content other than wear items. No PHS in those days. I have seen a few others that were claimed HO's as well. Block code and cam were HO. Long exhaust manifolds as well. I realize the entire engine could have been a post sale transplant, but it just didn't look that way to me.

[Old Goat Racer]

In 1969 I bought a 62 Catalina 4-door sedan for $100. Car was rough and the tranny was shot, had to tow it home with a chain. Pulled the engine out and scrapped the car. Sometime later I took the engine apart pulled the pan and couldn't believe my eyes. It had 4-bolt main caps. It was a 421 short block with 389 2-barrel heads. The engine code also said it was a 2-barrel engine. I have NO idea how or when the 421 was put in there. Go figure.
That's my Ripley story. Believe it or not. OGR

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Old Goat Racer

In 1969 I bought a 62 Catalina 4-door sedan for $100. Car was rough and the tranny was shot, had to tow it home with a chain. Pulled the engine out and scrapped the car. Sometime later I took the engine apart pulled the pan and couldn't believe my eyes. It had 4-bolt main caps. It was a 421 short block with 389 2-barrel heads. The engine code also said it was a 2-barrel engine. I have NO idea how or when the 421 was put in there. Go figure.
That's my Ripley story. Believe it or not. OGR

Do you happen to remember if the block had the transfer lug still on it? I have heard that the lug was machined off in situations like this when a large main bearing block was substituted on the assembly line. Although that really doesn't make much sense.

[jerry455]

Why would a silver exterior and a green interior be a problem? My dad had a 1970 Impala Custom 4 door that was silver and had a dark green interior. It looked really nice.

[Chief of the 60's]

There used to be a '70? LeMans out here back then that was silver with green vinyl top and green interior. I never thought much of it other than it was fugly.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by einstein

Gonna have to hijack the thread on this claim. I find that number difficult to believe. You've had a leather '69, I have a leather interior from a '69, I've seen at least another 5 or 6 leather interior cars either on line or in person, and there's chatter that most or all of the Comanche Firebirds had leather and I've heard rumors of roughly 50 Comanches having been built. Then there are the '68 leather birds and Comanches...

You have any documentation to back up the claim, Half Inch?

Sure, glad to. Original owner word-of-mouth, for what the Dealership told him as he described went through to special order the 69 Bird, after tough negotiations to order a Trams-Am. Original owner also said his 69 Was the last F-body off the line. I cannot verify the truthfulness of those original statements that were made to me. All other aspects of the car were verified, includng all receipts, window sticker, protecto, etc including the dealership discussion notes.

Never heard of comanche firebirds until this Thread. Looks like i'm outta touch with the deep research done on the 1st Gen Leather F-bodies.

[TAKerry]

Originally Posted by comanchefirebird

A good number of leather interior Firebirds were shipped to Canada in 68-69. At a minimum, all of the Comanche Firebirds sold in Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto had factory leather interiors, I've found 3 of the 13 1968 Firebird Comanches sold and all have the saddle leather interior. I've located about a dozen of the 1969 Comanche Firebirds, including mine, all have the gold leather 293 code interior.

Steve

This is a cool car, but its not factory as the original post suggests.

[dataway]

I think first we would have to define what is meant by "factory". Prior to customer delivery most dealerships in the day would do anything you wanted to a car if you had the money. Customers didn't care about build sheets and the like ... so heck, I imagine they would pull an option off another car on the lot and swap it if meant selling a vehicle.

Then there were the dealerships that had the clout to special order a batch of cars with normally unavailable options I imagine.

There were probably management types that could order a car with normally unavailable options.

Rental companies could probably order cars with anything they wanted.

There were a lot of paths that might lead to a car with options never documented as available on a particular model car.

So would "factory" mean as it left the factory? As it left the dealership? Or would it mean something like "regular production" as in only options listed as available to the average Joe with no alterations post factory?

[comanchefirebird]

Originally Posted by TAKerry

This is a cool car, but its not factory as the original post suggests.

I did not suggest that Comanche Firebirds were factory built. I did say that they were factory built with leather interiors.

[Don Keefe]

Lots of weird things that were built that shouldn't have. Whenever someone says that "it never happened," I always reply that any time something is built, the human element can throw things off, whether it was supplier problems that had assembly plants making running changed and substitutions, to a bunch of hung-over workers doing things wrong the morning after the Super Bowl. Stuff happens.

Sometimes, cars are built due to someone having a lot of pull exerting their influence, like the black 1963 LeMans with the Saddle interior, something that wasn't supposed to happen. What about the 1966 GTOs painted Ford Poppy Red from the factory or the four-door 1964 Grand Prix built for the wife of an influential dealer or the 1966 Grand Prix built on a long-wheelbase Bonneville chassis?

Never say never...

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

Lots of weird things that were built that shouldn't have. Whenever someone says that "it never happened," I always reply that any time something is built, the human element can throw things off, whether it was supplier problems that had assembly plants making running changed and substitutions, to a bunch of hung-over workers doing things wrong the morning after the Super Bowl. Stuff happens.

Sometimes, cars are built due to someone having a lot of pull exerting their influence, like the black 1963 LeMans with the Saddle interior, something that wasn't supposed to happen. What about the 1966 GTOs painted Ford Poppy Red from the factory or the four-door 1964 Grand Prix built for the wife of an influential dealer or the 1966 Grand Prix built on a long-wheelbase Bonneville chassis?

Never say never...

How about that '60(?) you found in the boneyard?

You know..... The one you could have saved and didn't.

[jhein]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

...the human element can throw things off, whether it was supplier problems that had assembly plants making running changed and substitutions...

Like what I've read about 70 TAs having the short, straight shifter when ordered without the center console. I read that they were spec'd for the short shifter but supply problems caused them to use whatever they had as the cars came down the line. The car I just got has the short shifter. Is that correct? Maybe. I don't know jack compared to all of you guys. But, I do like the shifter.

[GT182]

Originally Posted by dataway

I think first we would have to define what is meant by "factory".

1. Then there were the dealerships that had the clout to special order a batch of cars with normally unavailable options I imagine.

2. There were probably management types that could order a car with normally unavailable options.

Rental companies could probably order cars with anything they wanted.

There were a lot of paths that might lead to a car with options never documented as available on a particular model car.

3. So would "factory" mean as it left the factory? As it left the dealership? Or would it mean something like "regular production" as in only options listed as available to the average Joe with no alterations post factory?

1, Yes, yes, and yes. Look at the Union Pontiac drag cars. That was all factory as they had the clout to get what they wanted. As in the "Swiss Cheese" frames and other options the racers wanted straight from the factory..... as did many other dealers for drag racing

2. Yes, as it goes with my 1. answer. Shelby, was one and maybe the first to do so. Tho I'm sure.

Individuals changed cars to meet their needs and the wants of the public. Carroll Shelby was the first I can remember with his Shelby Cobras and Shelby Mustangs going to Hertz Rentals. Baldwin Motion in the 70s did it too (maybe even earlier).

3. Yes... as it rolled off the assembly line and loaded for delivery. Nothing changed. Same for regular production. And Factory car or truck with wanted options available from the factory for the public. Anything added by the dealer or owner was not "factory".... even if it was a factory option but didn't leave the factory with it.

When I started hauling new cars out of St. Therese, PQ, just north of Montreal, and other East Coast factories in 1978, we didn't see anything race oriented off the assembly lines going out to dealers. The mid 60s was the start of the changes so NASCAR racers could run factory car bodies approved by NASCAR. At least 500 had to be built so NASCAR would accept them for racing. Hence the Superbirds, Chargers with the sloped rear window in 69 (I believe that was the year), and Pontiac Aero Coup in the Mid 80s, There were others. But being a POF I can't remember them all.

Come on... you guys know of others that I don't.

[Simple Man]

Not Pontiac, but a man in Las Vegas wanted a half ton truck, with V8, and granny gear 4 speed. The big 3 didn't offer anything. He went to the Studebaker dealer, they said no, but then the GM said "let me make a call". He called the factory, they said "sure, we'll build that". So they built two. The man who ordered it still owned it a few years ago. The other one went to the dealer, it's long missing.