[Fishin2Deep4U]

Hi guys.

Been putting together some parts and researching others to fit port EFI into the Firebird. This is in a 9:1+ cr, iron headed driver.

The current plan is to run a Megasquirt 3. I will add the MS3Extra for the sequential function as well.

Also going to go with the Victor EFI, as this is just a modified Torker. I know it will require the shorter PICO injectors and I am hoping to find a OEM source for something in the 35# range for now. I am thinking hood clearance with the ability to use a spacer for plenum volume. And possibly, not likely, a hat connected to a small charger. 75mm or so.

The manifold will be topped with a 4150 progressive style throttle body. Was thinking Accufab. Short height, GM sensors and great reputation.

Probably going to go COP, but the EDIS system is stupid simple and need to weight the benefit of the COP.

And I have been in contact with Ollie regarding a crank trigger setup, I realize I'll need a bit of machining on my old front cover, but that's no biggie.

I know I need a fuel pump, lines, regulator, power supply ect. So, that's on my build list. I will most likely modify or buy a tank with an internal pump.

So here's the question. Where do you guys source your parts? I am looking for the best deals available of course, just curious who you guys like to deal with. I most likely will not boost this engine down the road, but this is the foundation for another build idea as I have a pile of turbos to play with.

So what say you? Sound like a solid build plan? What if anything would you do differently? And where are the deals at? I am knee deep already and open to any and all suggestions!

Dave

[Ollie]

I have bought parts from E-bay, P.Y forums. Remember Pick A Part is your friend.
The EDIS module will operate a COP ignition.
If you LT1 coils be aware that the Car and truck coils are different. The only thing in common between the two is the mounting screw pattern on the valve cover. The coil mounts on the bracket are different the coil plug is bigger on the car coil. Check out the photos on E bay you will soon get an "eye" for the difference. I picked up a set of the truck coils at Pick A Part. complete with the coils, mounting bracket and as much of the wire harness as I could cut past the big gray plug.

[Fishin2Deep4U]

Thanks for the tip on the coils.

What brand are those valve covers of yours? Looks like a good foundation for the coil mounts.

I had even toyed with the idea of modding a stock intake with some injector bungs. Just for fun of course as it would be severely limited for breathing.

I have even looked at using a quadrajet base plate or holley for that matter, machining an upper with a filter mount and making an external iac. But for the effort, a store bought unit is just easier.

Dave

[Ollie]

The valve covers are the cast aluminum Pontiac produced by GM, with the cast "PONTIAC"
When I got the coils at Pick A Part I unbolted the valve covers and cut the coil harness as far past the big gray plug as I could. Took about two minutes per side.
The photo of the coils show the difference between the truck coli and the car coils. The truck coil is on the right, you can also see the heat sink of the truck coil. The mounting tabs are different and the wire harness plug is smaller on the truck coils.
I think using the Accufab throttle bodie is going to be easier than trying to adapt a carb.
Using a carb you would have to figure out how to mount a throttle position sensor and the IAC.

when using COP or EDIS there still need to be an oil pump drive. Rather than having the big HEI distributor taking up space back there I had the top cut off and fabricated a cap to go over the end.

[Chris Petersen]

Originally Posted by Ollie

I have bought parts from E-bay, P.Y forums. Remember Pick A Part is your friend.
The EDIS module will operate a COP ignition.
If you LT1 coils be aware that the Car and truck coils are different. The only thing in common between the two is the mounting screw pattern on the valve cover. The coil mounts on the bracket are different the coil plug is bigger on the car coil. Check out the photos on E bay you will soon get an "eye" for the difference. I picked up a set of the truck coils at Pick A Part. complete with the coils, mounting bracket and as much of the wire harness as I could cut past the big gray plug.

x2

I got the crank trigger setup from Ollie. Awesome part. Had it in a few days.
Packaged great, and has the most detailed instructions for the install.

Thanks again Ollie!

I have not used mine yet, but it sure is purdy.

[Fishin2Deep4U]

Yeah, the carb thing is just a measure of being cheap. LOL

As far as the dist, I was thinking the same thing. I have already made a priming tool by spinning one down on a lathe. In fact, I could get tricky and thread the top so I would have a viton o-ringed, fabricated cap. I could then turn it as an assembly and make the parting line vanish. And that would be a cool, low profile part!

I will just machine my front cover and tig up and voids left behind. Or mill a flat to mount a pointer to. Should be easy enough.

For the fuel tank, as I need a new one, I was wondering if using a late model in tank pump and module would work. I know I need to check the ohms required by the float, but could easily adapt an earlier one if needed. Maybe one of the cheaper prefabbed units is more reasonable.

Now I just need to pull out the card!

Dave

[Ollie]

thanks for the complement Chris.
I don't know how deep the fuel tank is on The 68. I am using a 4 th gen fuel pump module, the tank needs to be 9 inches deep. Also have a part number for the GM 0 to 90 ohm fuel level sender.

The fitting is a Russell 644120, New design with the threaded locking collar.

[Fishin2Deep4U]

Ollie,

does that module compress? If so, is that dimension the compressed height?

I could easily "sump" or well the area where the module would sit and further enhance it's ability to capture fuel. Obviously talking about the bottom side of the tank. May look a bit funky though.

Dave

[BruceWilkie]

There are "non module" in tank pump/float assemblies on earlier efi gm cars/trucks that mount with the same lock ring setup used on carbed cars for fuel pick up and sending unit. Check your ring size and go visit your favorite used part places. Very easy to modify the pump height/float arm on those. Let me know if you want a few pics of what I'm describing.

Dont get too concerned about the pump being good or if TBI setup as there are other pumps new that will meet your fuel pressure/flow requirements that can easily be fitted. The float arm can also be shaped as needed. Pumps for these are usually much cheaper than the module type. Many of the module types are hard to get only a pump for it or very hard to change out just the pump. (without breaking something)

You can of course baffle your tank internally if you want instead of adding a sump.

On the high power end Aeromotive pumps can be installed in-tank and they also sell a really nice, well baffled fuel cell with your choice of A1000 or Eliminator pumps already installed.

[BruceWilkie]

Ollie, do you know if the coil on plug systems or coil pack type are CD or inductive discharge? I like the much longer spark duration an inductive system can provide in non distributor applications.

[Engo]

COP are inductive in all cases I have seen.

[Fishin2Deep4U]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

There are "non module" in tank pump/float assemblies on earlier efi gm cars/trucks that mount with the same lock ring setup used on carbed cars for fuel pick up and sending unit. Check your ring size and go visit your favorite used part places. Very easy to modify the pump height/float arm on those. Let me know if you want a few pics of what I'm describing.

Dont get too concerned about the pump being good or if TBI setup as there are other pumps new that will meet your fuel pressure/flow requirements that can easily be fitted. The float arm can also be shaped as needed. Pumps for these are usually much cheaper than the module type. Many of the module types are hard to get only a pump for it or very hard to change out just the pump. (without breaking something)

You can of course baffle your tank internally if you want instead of adding a sump.

On the high power end Aeromotive pumps can be installed in-tank and they also sell a really nice, well baffled fuel cell with your choice of A1000 or Eliminator pumps already installed.

Any pics that you might have of the earlier style setup would be very appreciated! I certainly don't mind trying the other ways to skin the cat.

Dave

[Ollie]

Originally Posted by Fishin2Deep4U

Ollie,

does that module compress? If so, is that dimension the compressed height?

Dave

Yes, The bucket is spring loaded, 9 inches is the compressed height.
Tryed to get a photo of the compressed height , hard to hold the module down one handed while holding a tape measure
in one hand and taking a photo with the other.
You could sump the if you had to.

Yes, Bruce, or anyone else, I too would like to see photos of other in tank fuel pump modules.
The 4th gen is the only one I am familiar with.
Do you know if the fuel level sensor is 0 to 90 ohm?

The Vettworks Located in Auburn WA.is where I purchased my 4th gen fuel pump module
I purchased the pump module , with out the plumbing adapters.
http://vetteworksonline.com/

Link to installing the 4th gen. fuel pump module.
http://www.vetteworksonline.com/ls1_conversion_fuel.htm

This is the link to Racetronix, They offer Direct replacement application specific fuel pumps.
http://www.racetronix.com/

this link is to Racetronix Other fuel pump modules
http://www.racetronix.biz/items.asp?...atus=0&Tp=&Bc=
I was just over at this link reading about these modules
They are for Buick Grand National cars they have a 90 ohm fuel level sender.
Does not state how deep the tank is. Would also have to figure out a baffle

[Ollie]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Ollie, do you know if the coil on plug systems or coil pack type are CD or inductive discharge? I like the much longer spark duration an inductive system can provide in non distributor applications.

They are conventional discharge. They work very well with Coil on Plug and The Ford EDIS wasted spark module. Using cop and waisted spark there is longer dwell time compared to
A single coil system.

[BruceWilkie]

Thanks Ollie... pretty sure the two I have are 90 ohm.. I'll check and get some pics while I'm at it. The look identical but 1 came from a v6 tb setup S10 and the other out of a 350 powered late 80's 3/4 ton truck. Sometime this week I'll see what psi these pumps can make and attempts to see how much they flow. The pumps were functioning when pulled.

As far as EFI... I like the ignition of the Electromotive system but not to keen on their fuel software... Looks like MS3 I can pretty much = their ignition side and do better on fuel side and logging etc... I've been getting familiar with Tuner Studio software(nice and comprhendable) so... once I start doing my efi it will not overwhelm me. May just run my distributor ignition/Accel 300+375 stuff at first but do want the advantages of a distributorless inductive ignition over CD... I'll take good voltage with long spark duration over higher voltage short spark duration capacitor discharge anytime.

[TheMonkey]

i am running MS3 with COP LS truck coils. it works great.

i should probably put together a list of the parts i used, but i haven't yet. any questions just ask. i've done a couple motors with MS.

on my Pontiac, i did use the green top 42# Bosch injectors. i have 527hp 462 CID and they feed it easy and it idles great.

for fuel pump, i used tanksinc kit in stock tank. http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...prod/prd84.htm it is quiet, and of course stock tank fits, well, like stock. it has walbro pump that is plenty for my motor. the aeromotive pump is huge flow and i have read a few instances of fuel boiling because it is pumping too much through the system and radiating too much heat back into the tank like a cauldron.

have you come up with a crank trigger yet? i used a 36 tooth motorcycle sprocket with a tooth knocked out. it worked great, but it is in place of an AC pulley. i'd like to have AC next season so i need to come up with something else. a friend of mine can laser cut a stack of them for pretty cheap so we should talk about a design for them if you want to work together on that.

for cam signal, i have an entire MSD distributor still in there with the VR sensor and modified tooth wheel. fortunately can't see the distributor very well back there, but i'd like to make a stub like Ollie did.

i used Edelbrock throttlebody that looks like a carburetor. it's been a bit of a pain because of the IAC motor on it. i just never got it to work right with standard step algorithms, but the MSExtra closed loop idle has worked great. works particularly well with the fans kicking in and keeping a constant idle.

innovate o2 sensor has worked great for me, and i also hid a gauge in my flip down ashtray which i like to be able to watch on some heavy foot stuff.

i made my fuel rails out of extrusion. i think from Haas or something? i bent the ss tubes and fittings from mcmaster. Rigid 37 degree flare tool was a great investment. the flexible lines from chassis to motor and chassis to tank were push on type from summit. great stuff, handles the new junk gasoline well, and not real expensive. i tried to stay away from the look of the red and blue anodized stuff because too flashy, and it's less expensive that way. can see the blue flex lines in pic down by oil filter: http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9759/photo7su.jpg

keep your wiring clean, especially your grounds. life will be easier through your MS experience that way. i ended up using just one capacitor right at the alternator. it's a small one too. a great investment was a hobbylab scope to really see what was happening with all the electronics. it took a lot of guessing out.

good luck and have fun. megasquirt is a huge project, but will learn a load if you don't already know the stuff.

[Ollie]

Hay Monkey haven't seen you post in a while. good to see you posting.
I have 36-1 trigger wheels for the Pontiac harmonic balancer. It is 7.10 inch in diameter, bolts to the back side of the balancer so the stock pulleys are retained with out having to off set the alternator, power steering pump and AC compressor, I recommend using the late model timing cover with out the timing tabs. For the timing tab I used a modified Ram Air Restorations timing tab. I have the trigger wheels for sale $60 shipped priority mail. Includes instructions to fabricate the sensor bracket and how to mount the trigger wheel.

I am working on a 4-1 cam sensor I have CAD drawings I need to find a machine shop to do some CNC work. This distributor cover can use either a magnetic sensor or the Mallory Unilite OPTO sensor.

[Hammered]

Ollie: It's good to see you continuing to make progress. Can't wait till you have it running.

fishin': I believe Honda has some OEM injectors that will fit under the Victor EFI rails with little or no modification. Because the rails are canted inward on that intake, you really need to keep the injector height close to the picos or you'll have interference between your TB and fuel rails.

[Fishin2Deep4U]

I was worried about rail to tb clearance with that intake. I am at the point where I can use a different one as I have not yet purchased one.

Since I will have some room for a spacer, would that provide the clearance to run standard injectors our its the pricing close enough on the injectors it's not worth the trouble? Since I am not ruining a ram air setup, perhaps another intake would be a better fit?

I watched the butler turbo build on power block and got me to thinking that I can have my cake and eat it too.

I have also looked at the hurricane intake. But was afraid of potential fit issues.

And does it make any difference if the injector is slightly canted towards the exhaust valve or not? Clearly, the best place would be towards the back of the valve, but just how important is it?


Ollie, what is the 4-1 wheel for? I always thought we wanted a higher numerically toothed wheel to trigger with.

I appreciate all this info guys, it focuses my purchases.

Dave

[Ollie]

Originally Posted by Hammered

Ollie: It's good to see you continuing to make progress. Can't wait till you have it running.

I cant wait until I have it running too. Progress has been slow.

Originally Posted by Fishin2Deep4U

I was worried about rail to tb clearance with that intake. I am at the point where I can use a different one as I have not yet purchased one.

1 One thing to be concerned about, epically with the F bodies is under hood
clearance. That is why I went with the Victor JR. To retain the shaker on my 79.

Since I will have some room for a spacer, would that provide the clearance to run standard injectors our its the pricing close enough on the injectors it's not worth the trouble? Since I am not ruining a ram air setup, perhaps another intake would be a better fit?

2 I think the pricing on the injectors is close enough it's not worth the trouble
check E bay I have a set of 60lbs injectors from this seller Item 230488634520
Or search key word Pico injectors

fishin': I believe Honda has some OEM injectors that will fit under the Victor EFI rails with little or no modification. Because the rails are canted inward on that intake, you really need to keep the injector height close to the Pico's or you'll have interference between your TB and fuel rails.

I watched the butler turbo build on power block and got me to thinking that I can have my cake and eat it too.


Does it make any difference if the injector is slightly canted towards the exhaust valve or not? Clearly, the best place would be towards the back of the valve, but just how important is it?

I don't think it is important the injectors on the Victor JR. are vertical. The injectors are spraying when the valve is closed.


Ollie, what is the 4-1 wheel for? I always thought we wanted a higher numerically toothed wheel to trigger with.

The 4-1 trigger wheel is for cam position sensor. Which is needed for True sequential ignition.
The cop coils can be operated in waisted spark mode using an EDIS module.