GTO Failure from the Goat's mouth...

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by dancolkate

When the Monero first hit the US, I visited my local Pontiac dealer. Like many others, I was absolutely amazed that they weren't allowing test drives. I make plenty of money to buy one of those things. The dealers were treating them like some exotic that could only be driven by Italian F1 drivers. No thanks. Same thing happened to a friend of mine in TN, he owns his owns business and buys a new car every year...

Truth is, the car has a tried and true drive train. And EVERYTHING I've read indicates the interior is world class. Thats it.

BUT, the car is:

- A Holden...designed and built in Australia. For those import haters, it doesn't get any more imported than this.

- Ugly.....Eveytime I see one....I think ugly. This is my opinion.

- You say "priced wrong" haha...I say overpriced.

Well that was 2004...it's 2007 now. Go drive one. You do realize that Holden is as every part of GM as Pontiac is right? If that's the case, then you must have hated F-Bodies from 1993 on since they were "imports" built by GM of Canada.

Yup, you can have your opinion that it's ugly.

Yea, it was overpriced, but you can get one now for a decent price.

As I said, have you driven on?

[87LC2]

Originally Posted by dancolkate

Selling your classic to afford the Monero I see. You belong on ls1.com with all the other Chevrolet guys.

I own the Monaro, the 1969 GTO, and my 1987 Turbo T.
All three titles are in my safe, I owe nothing on any car.
I am keeping the Buick for obvious reasons, I bought it new, it gets 24 mpg on the highway, and it's gone 12.02 @ 113 mph with a tired trans.
I am keeping the Holden Monaro for obvious reasons, I bought it new, it gets 22 mpg on the highway, it handles like a slot car (for 3800lbs) and is the most comfortable GM car I've ever driven.
I am selling the '69 GTO for obvious reasons, I bought it pre-owned, it gets 14 mpg, and I don't like sitting in lawn chairs staring at my car at a cruise night/car show listening to '50's music making sure some assclown doesn't scratch my 38 year old antique.
I have only so much time and space to devote to my cars, one must go, the choice is simple.

[TinInjun]

Here is how bad ass the GTO is. Filmed this during the '05 POCI nats. Real barn burners for sure. BTW this is a '04 vs '05.
http://members.aol.com/jetmech15/gto/04gtovs05gto.wmv

[dancolkate]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

Well that was 2004...it's 2007 now. Go drive one. You do realize that Holden is as every part of GM as Pontiac is right? If that's the case, then you must have hated F-Bodies from 1993 on since they were "imports" built by GM of Canada.

Yup, you can have your opinion that it's ugly.

Yea, it was overpriced, but you can get one now for a decent price.

As I said, have you driven on?

I have been to the Holden plant a few years ago. Holden's relationship to GM is WILDLY different than Pontiacs relationship with GM. Trust me. Things are done very differently in AU and they run things "their way". There is a TOTALLY different perspective on life. And there is a TOTALLY different perspective in the manufacturing and automotive industry over there.

Ask yourself this question. Why is GM turning to AU for the GTO and the G8? The Zeta platform? Why is GM turning to AU?

The F-bodies were designed and engineered in the US. GM decided to assemble them in Canada. Totally different scenario....a poor analogy on your part.

Besides the engine, how much of the Holden Monero do you think was conceptualized, designed, or engineered by GM employees that live outside AU? the Monero was an Australian car. You cannot get away from that fact. GM imported an Australian car.

OK....I have a few hours Saturday and I'll go to the local GM dealer and ask if I can drive the Monero. I will do it.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by dancolkate

I have been to the Holden plant a few years ago. Holden's relationship to GM is WILDLY different than Pontiacs relationship with GM. Trust me. Things are done very differently in AU and they run things "their way". There is a TOTALLY different perspective on life. And there is a TOTALLY different perspective in the manufacturing and automotive industry over there.

Ask yourself this question. Why is GM turning to AU for the GTO and the G8? The Zeta platform? Why is GM turning to AU?

The F-bodies were designed and engineered in the US. GM decided to assemble them in Canada. Totally different scenario....a poor analogy on your part.

Besides the engine, how much of the Holden Monero do you think was conceptualized, designed, or engineered by GM employees that live outside AU? the Monero was an Australian car. You cannot get away from that fact. GM imported an Australian car.

OK....I have a few hours Saturday and I'll go to the local GM dealer and ask if I can drive the Monero. I will do it.

First off, learn how to spell the damn name, MONARO.
Really, what year were you there? Which plant? Was this BEFORE OR AFTER their affiliation with Pontiac?

No, not a poor anology, the GTO was the first step in a global platform sharing...in fact, the Monaro had Opel underpinnings.

Holden IS PART OF GM...you need to understand that fact. Go to GM.com and you'll find HOLDEN along with PONTIAC, CHEVY and BUICK on the pull down as far as sites go. HOLDEN IS GM.

[jeffhhs76]

Well Mr. Monaro ...er GTO and Dan, you both have good points. Do you want to know why this argument will never reach a desired end for either of you? Repeat after me..Global Economy...There are very few American made GM cars anymore but now there are Toyotas built in the good old USA. So what are you going to do? Argue where the parts to build the cars are made? For what its worth, here's my take. Pontiac made a HUGE error in judgement bringing back the GTO name to put on a car that bears no resemblence in any way other than in the name itself to its predecessor. The Pontiac version of the Monaro however is a wickedly fast car and deserved to stand on its own with a unique Pontiac name. If Pontiac had done this they probably would have sold 20K each year, even with the bland rental car look it has. But they attempted to capitalize on the name of an automotive legend and it blew up in their face just as most people suspected it would. There are true blue 04-06 GTO die hards out there like Mr GTO who swear by the car. Is it a GTO? Well, it says GTO on the name plate so I guess so. As Dan says, it is actually a Holden Monaro assemebled in the states with a Chevy Engine because they are the only GM engines available today. Definitley NOT pure Pontiac but it is as pure a Pontiac as you'll get today. You guys can argue forever and you will both continue to be right. The best we can do is let it go and pray that GM in general and Pontiac in particular don't screw up like this again. Mr GTO, please stop comparing your GTO with the GTO's of the sixties and seventies. With the technology we have today the damn car better be faster than the 60's cars! So speed wise, I concede..you win, but when it comes intimidating looks, aura, and Neck snapping torque...AKA the complete package.... you're in a different solar system. Different strokes fellas, different strokes............Rock on!

[pont3]

This whole idea about current cars bearing resemblance to their forebears is getting quite old. I mean, exactly which car, by any US maker other than the Mustang, bears any resemblance at all to its 50s, 60s, or 70s counterpart? The other question I have is, would the 60s Goats have acheived their sales numbers if the US had been inundated with the various imports that are currently offered in their class? A lot has changed in our world and our country since the 60s heyday. Much of that change is solely due to the exaggeration of our freedom of choice. Did you know Mustang sales have had two consecutive months of 19% declines? Wanna bet what happened to 300, Magnum, Charger sales?

I know many feel the name GTO hurt this car's sales. But consider the expense of bringing the car over under an unheard of, unfamiliar name. The advertising alone would have made it impossible to obtain this car at a 30k price point. Lutz knew this and made a decision, a right one in my opinion, to reinvigorate performance at Pontiac. THIS WAS ONLY A STARTING POINT.

The most irritating thing is, most of the whiners crying "it's no GTO" have never even owned a GTO of any year. Fact is, this car does what it's always done, just does it a whole lot better. It is still the car to beat. And that subjective category of styling will always be open to debate.

[87LC2]

14.4 @ 94.99 mph
Barn burner!

[jeffhhs76]

Originally Posted by pont3

This whole idea about current cars bearing resemblance to their forebears is getting quite old. I mean, exactly which car, by any US maker other than the Mustang, bears any resemblance at all to its 50s, 60s, or 70s counterpart? The other question I have is, would the 60s Goats have acheived their sales numbers if the US had been inundated with the various imports that are currently offered in their class? A lot has changed in our world and our country since the 60s heyday. Much of that change is solely due to the exaggeration of our freedom of choice. Did you know Mustang sales have had two consecutive months of 19% declines? Wanna bet what happened to 300, Magnum, Charger sales?

I know many feel the name GTO hurt this car's sales. But consider the expense of bringing the car over under an unheard of, unfamiliar name. The advertising alone would have made it impossible to obtain this car at a 30k price point. Lutz knew this and made a decision, a right one in my opinion, to reinvigorate performance at Pontiac. THIS WAS ONLY A STARTING POINT.

The most irritating thing is, most of the whiners crying "it's no GTO" have never even owned a GTO of any year. Fact is, this car does what it's always done, just does it a whole lot better. It is still the car to beat. And that subjective category of styling will always be open to debate.

Know what? You can what if this thing to death and nobody will be right. You say the Mustang has had 2 months of 19% declines. OK, is that following 2 years of rising 19%? You can't give half the facts. That sales number had to be pretty stout to decline 38% in two months and still be in positive territory which it is. Listen, The Mustang, The new Challenger, the new Camaro, all these cars represent their heritage very well and will be rewarded with a nice sales figure. You may think retro is getting old and you're entitled to your opinion. Fact is, the retro look sells. BTW, you mention the 300,Magnum and Charger. My opinion on these cars is how they even got produced. Boat anchors, every one of them and not very appealing. So it wouldn't surprise me if they don't sell well. I still believe Pontiac would have sold many more of the Monaro's had they called it something else. Pontiac should have let the name rest in peace. I don't deny the new GTO's capabilities but just because it can outrun an old GTO shouldn't mean it can assume the name. Call it something else, they'll sell just as well if not better than the 04-06 Monaro/GTO had. You are correct about this being a different world. I'll leave you with another "what if?" What if GM's interests on all levels were still largely here in the states as it was at one time but the economical circumstances of today were applied, Does Pontiac release another GTO?

[jeffhhs76]

Originally Posted by 87LC2

14.4 @ 94.99 mph
Barn burner!

This isn't an ET from your new GTO I hope..........

[87LC2]

Originally Posted by jeffhhs76

This isn't an ET from your new GTO I hope..........

Not at all...LOL
That's another barn burner, some one on this site.
I'd expect numbers like that out of my all stock 3.23 geared automatic 1969 GTO with A/C.
My 2006 is a mid to low 13 sec car...easy.
My '87 Buick is high 11's with a fresh trans.
Everyone seems to focus on the name GTO. Give it up, it's just a name. Look they put GTO on a '74 X body 'nova'.....come on! Mitsubishi had a GTO
Some new GTO owners modify their cars back to Holden trim because they don't want to be seen driving a Pontiac, due to years of GM producing CRAP.
If GM didn't drop the soap maybe we could have made good cars in this country, and not have to outsource for a decent coupe.

General Statement:
My Holdeniac GenarO is a great car, you can call it a POS....I'll be waiting for you at the finish line, Hurry Up!

[jeffhhs76]

You just hit it right on the head. Thats just the point. To some it's just a name but to the majority of anyone involved with cars it is much more than a name, it's an institution. This will never change. Sure Mitsubishi has a GTO, hell Ferrari had it first! But neither of these cars had made an impact on society like the Pontiac GTO did. The Pontiac GTO changed the automobile industry forever! No other car has ever done that. To analagize we'll use the Beatles. Rock and roll was still new as horsepower was in the late 50's. Sure there were some heavy horsepower acts like Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry (Just as there were some hot cars like the Mopar 413 powered Valients and the Chrysler 300 with its dual quads and cross ram intake). But then the Beatles come along with a new completely electric sound heard for the first time (just as the GTO brought everyday driveable horsepower to the street), and everyone, including Bob Dylan, jump on the electric bandwagon and most artists that came after them claim to have been influenced by the Beatles in some way. Now, over the past 40 some odd years there have been much better musicians out there than the Beatles and many incredible songs. But as incredibly talented as these artists were, none of them could shine the Beatles boots in their impact on the industry. So lets say next year 4 amazing musicians get together and write some of the best tunes you have ever heard and call themselves The Beatles!!! ................. Hey, It's just a name, right?

[1969 Ram Air]

I'm sure it's a great driving car, but it looks like a grand am.

[Karch]

Hey Jeff, while I agree with much that you said, I must say that as far as a car changing the industry, you must look at the Ford Model T and Mustang...I think they had bigger impacts.

Plus the 55 Bel Air as well.

[jeffhhs76]

Not when it comes to horsepower. After the GTO was released, all the auto makers scrambled to stuff a big engine in their mid size offerings. The largest V8 you could get in a Mustang was 289ci until 1966 or 7 I believe. They all targeted the GTO somehow.. the 442, SS Chevelle, Hemi powered Chryslers, Gran Sport...All born of the GTO concept. The Camaro and Firebird were the first cars that GM made to specifically target the Mustang. When GM started putting big block engines in those cars then Ford started doing the same with the Mustang. BTW, Take a good look at the styling of the 1968-1970 Dodge Charger..The split grille, coke bottle body design, fastback roofline...Looks like it was modeled right after the 66/67 GTO!!! I won't comment on the model T because it doesn't apply here.

[Karch]

Thanks for the history lesson, though I am well versed in it.

I was merely stating that while the GTO did break ground on a new segment, it was not the first to change the industry forever.

[jeffhhs76]

That's a little clouded, isn't it? The GTO and the Mustang were released the same year. In fact, the GTO was released first as the Mustang was released mid year in 64'. The Mustang had a monster marketing campaign where the GTO was marketed entirely underground because of GM sanctions.

But I really have to ask you. What exactly did the release of the Mustang change?

Not one auto maker rushed to put our their version of the Mustang after its release. That didn't happen until three years later. So the Mustang didn't "change" the way auto makers went about their business. The GTO on the other hand spawned copycats imediately upon its release and did, in fact change the focus of all American auto makers from that point on.

[87LC2]

We all agree on one thing, we love cars to a certian degree. We all have different tastes, I personally like the look of the 1965 GTO way better than the '66~'67. I thought the '66~'67 got big and fat in the ass, many will disagree. I don't seek out owners of these fat ass cars and tell them their cars blow, no... I accept them just as I accept owners of '70~'72 GTO's that I find unattractive also(we all know '69 was the best). To each his own.
In 1987 I bought a Turbo T Buick and was shunned by the '72 and older crowd, calling it a 'flash in the pan' and 'fake horsepower', not a real 'muscle car'. Well guess what, all they saw was tail lights, then "hey that runs good" I killed many many 'muscle cars' with out even breaking a sweat.
I guess I'm just tired of "car guys" being as closed minded to new development as it appears.
Not directed at anyone in particular but this site is the most hostile site for new Monaro owners. I will use Monaro on this site to appease the old heads.
God I feel like I'm in a Geico commercial, so simple a caveman can get it.

[jeffhhs76]

Exactly 87!!!!..Like I said in my first post, different strokes.....I have no problem with the new GTO other than Pontiac using the name GTO. The car flat out runs....Hey, you can't see what it looks like from the drivers seat, right??

Now that you've brought it up again, I do have a question for you. I am one of the guys who never understood how the 6 cylinder Buick was able to turn those blazing times. Can you enlighten me? Was it just a chip replacement, gearing or is there more to it?

[87LC2]

With simple bolt on mods 11 second runs are attainable. Popular Hotrodding even did a three part series with the help of Kenne Bell where they more than doubled the rwhp without even taking off the valve covers.
They took a 110,000 mile '86 GN and dynoed it, came up with 202 rwhp they don't mention the torque which is what makes the Buick rule. Stock it ran 14.2 @ 94 mph. They then put a chip and 160* thermo and got something like 235 rwhp. I don't have it in fron of me but I will look and post all #'s.
Then they did exhaust and headers, throttle body, ram air, a front mount intercooler and a turbo with a total of 402 rwhp. A year later they did heads and cam, taking it out of bolt on category, and had 456 rwhp.
Before the heads and cam they were in the 11s at high altitude track.
This is with the stock 2004R trans and 3.42 rear and stock suspension.
Will try to find article to get the numbers straight.
I don't condone street racing but I have seldom seen the back of any car, and surprise a few bikes