[Giffels]

Small update if anyone’s interested in the baffling in a canton vs. a nitemare. Managed to get the motor pulled after work. Gold = canton, silver = nitemare

Design looks similar but I like the baffle layout on the nitemare, seems like it will really help with the right hand issue (fingers crossed)

[Tom Vaught]

Looking at Photo #3 previously posted of the Nightmare oil pan:

There are some interesting things going on with the oil control inside the pan:

1) The drivers side rear does have a small deflector welded into the back wall of the pan.

2) The area behind the oil pump does not have a deflector but it looks like they created a passage on the passenger side of the pan where the oil could rush to the rear of the pan but then bounce off the rear wall and enter the oil pick-up screen area where the oil would be trapped by the oil pan "gates" that would not allow that oil to go forward.
The gates would also allow oil to pass thru the oil gates to the screen.

3) Looks like the oil pan has a scraper located on the passenger side of the pan that would funnel oil to the sump of the pan too.

Tom V.

[Giffels]

Yes sir. That combined with the built in windage screen makes me think this is the right direction. Added photo now with the tray in it as it comes (can’t help myself to take everything apart)

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Looking at Photo #3 previously posted of the Nightmare oil pan:

There are some interesting things going on with the oil control inside the pan:

1) The drivers side rear does have a small deflector welded into the back wall of the pan.

2) The area behind the oil pump does not have a deflector but it looks like they created a passage on the passenger side of the pan where the oil could rush to the rear of the pan but then bounce off the rear wall and enter the oil pick-up screen area where the oil would be trapped by the oil pan "gates" that would not allow that oil to go forward.
The gates would also allow oil to pass thru the oil gates to the screen.

3) Looks like the oil pan has a scraper located on the passenger side of the pan that would funnel oil to the sump of the pan too.

Tom V.

[Giffels]

Small update. Issue is still ever present, Darrin has been incredible to work with and we have tried throwing everything but the kitchen sink at this and still cant get the issue to go away.

Im at a loss here, verified pickup height of 1/8-1/4" off pan.

Can anyone think of any internal issues to the oiling system in the motor that would cause this? My thought is i have to have something going on internally to be uncovering the sump - I know an oil galley plug cannot be missing but could there be a leak or another issue internal somewhere that could cause excess oil in the top end?

At the end of my rope with this issue, about to yank this motor and put something else in at this point...

[HWYSTR455]

I still suggest removing the remote oil filter setup and see if you still have the issues.

.

[Giffels]

Is there a setup for the block that will clear long tube headers? I have the remote setup right on the firewall, lines are just barely 10" long so I dont see how it would really cause this issue? those lines should only hold 0.25 quarts and the filter is about 0.75

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I still suggest removing the remote oil filter setup and see if you still have the issues.

.

[HWYSTR455]

I'm not sure either, I would have to look at it in person, but it's the only remaining item that hasn't been tried. Could be the lines, fittings, filter housing, filter, or block plate.

Is it possible you have the lines crossed, and your pump-out is going to the filter-out side?


.

[Giffels]

No sir not possible, in my younger days I have done that (a prior engine) and it will have 0 oil pressure in that instance haha. Other issue I have is I do have a lakewood scatter shield on it so I think that kind of blocks any possibility of a filter on the block from what I can tell.

I'm with you on only remaining item. I used to have the old school Hydraulic lines with the filter up on the fender and have since swapped to all Earls fittings which are supposed to flow much better.

Just wondering if I have somehow have an oil galley plug problem internal to the block somehow? Just doesn't make sense I seem to be the only one having a starvation issue.

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I'm not sure either, I would have to look at it in person, but it's the only remaining item that hasn't been tried. Could be the lines, fittings, filter housing, filter, or block plate.

Is it possible you have the lines crossed, and your pump-out is going to the filter-out side?


.

[HWYSTR455]

Lakewood, thing there are some angled spacers and different housing that might allow you to use the OE adapter, check ram air restorations, believe they have some.

I used to trim my lakewoods, I would trim off the entire flange along the bottom, those things hang too low anyway, so the OE adapter was never an issue for me.


.

[PontiacJim1959]

Remove the oil filter completely - do they make a union where you can join the inlet/outlet line together? If so, do a fresh oil change, take if for a drive and do what you normally do when it drops. If it does not drop, then you are zeroing in the problem - something with the remote set-up. If it still drops, then it is not the filter media/remote filter set-up.

I read that a way to test the oil level in the pan for a road race car so that the oil covers the oil pick-up, is to secure the pick-up in the pan (might use a couple strong magnets) and fill the pan with the required oil amount, and tilt the pan to a 45 degree angle, left & right. With the pan tilted at 45 degrees, you should still have oil covering the entire pick-up. If not, then the pan may need to be modified.

[adynes]

You might need to try some external oil drain back lines.

[bluebandit]

Gonna throw this out just because but have you considered trying a standard volume pump. Sounds like your pumping the oil out of the pan faster than it can return. If you pump less then more should be available to help cover the pickup.

[Sirrotica]

May I suggest reading this link, about oil drain back lines to keep the oil in the pan instead of on top of the cylinder heads. If you're leaving most of the oil on top of the cylinder heads you're effectively running the pan down a couple quarts as soon as the engine is run at high RPM because of drain back restriction. No matter how the pan is baffled, it won't work if the majority of the oil is in the top end of the engine.

Link: https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...39#post5563539

I have no idea what cylinder heads you're running, but the aftermarket heads (Edelbrock, KRE) don't return oil to the pan nearly as quickly as the OEM cast iron heads do.

The thread also talks about restricting the oil flow through .080 restricted pushrods to keep from filling the cylinder heads. This same thing can be accomplished by installing restrictors in the lifter bore feed holes.

Hopefully this will show some results for your problem.

I'm fairly certain that the remote oil filter system isn't going to show any difference, but if you want to eliminate it completely and try running the engine with no filter whatsoever the Pontiac engineers made a filter elimination casting to run Stratostreak engines with no oil filter.



You would have to fashion your own by pass plate to aid in your troubleshooting because they were few and far between, and of course GM doesn't sell them any longer. You could use a by pass oil filter, eliminate the full flow filter completely, and have zero restriction between the pump and the internally oiled engine parts. You'll also have much cleaner oil over a full flow filter too. You're the owner so the decision would be yours.

Something else I thought about, is your bypass valve operational, or is it blocked? For some reason people think it's a good ides to block the by pass valve and render it inoperable. With a single OEM filter the oil pressure can crush the filter media and make it more restrictive, or actually tear the media paper. I don't subscribe to this theory of blocking the bypass valve, and have never done it on any of the engines I've built for racing or street use.

[Jay S]

For road racing I would have added an accumulator to begin with. We ran the 3qt systems in the past with the pressures set on the high side so that it would only fill when the oil pump was fairly close to being on the bypass. Can either run the pressures fairly high in the accumulator or go hi tech and set the EPC valve so that it will only recharge/charge at higher pressures, 40-50 psi. In that situation the oil pump bypass oil is mostly what is charging the accumulator. It basically is squirreling away oil (3qts!) for times when the engine is in an awkward position and has oil is pumped up someplace other than the pan. If you already have a remote oil filter installed most of the work is done. Best of the best without going to a dry sump for me would be the Luhn pump with a 3 qt accusump with the EPC valve. One of them we did had a rubber suction line between the pump and the pickup, and the suction screen was attached to the oil pan back on the kick out. We were having trouble on a high bank uncovering the pickup.

I probably would have added the extra quart on oil above where it is at just for a very short trial run to see if it made a difference. Then drained it out and made a decision from there. I don’t think it is a internal pressure loss issue or you would have issues with right and left corners.