FAQ |
Members List |
Social Groups |
Calendar |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
If you ran a jumper wire from the battery to the S terminal with good cable to the starter and nothing happened, you have a bad solenoid. I used to take them apart and clean the contacts, have you tried that ?
A 12V solenoid is a simple device with a coil. If all the contacts are good and you have the right voltage and amps and its jumped and nothing happens, you have a bad coil/solenoid. You might want to run a ground jumper wire to the starters frame, that would cover it all. I cured a LOT of starter problems by running a Fold solenoid on the fender well and one big fat wire to the starter with a jumper wire down there between the big lug on the starter itself and the purple/start terminal on the solenoid. If you do that the Ford starter takes the initial hit on its contacts a millisecond before the big contacts on the starter solenoid on the starter itself. So, its contacts last a super long time and there is no purple wire going to the starter to get cooked. That cooked purple wire causes a lot of problems. Just protect the one big cable going down to the starter. Bet if you do the Ford solenoid deal your problems will be over. Some people run a diode to prevent a back feeding of current. I have not had a issue, I think it has something to do with the difference between a permanent magnet starter and a electro magnet starter. I will ask the electric wiz kid that question at work tomorrow. Last edited by Dragncar; 12-10-2023 at 11:48 PM. |
The Following User Says Thank You to Dragncar For This Useful Post: | ||
#22
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Since you tried 2 solenoids, a poor ground on the starter motor seems the only thing left. How that could happen I have no clue. I'm rooting for the wiz kid! |
The Following User Says Thank You to Shiny For This Useful Post: | ||
#23
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Is it possible that the solenoid is bad even though the starter works fine when I bench tested it? I did try two solenoids; I guess it's possible they're both bad, but one is brand new and the other was working a few days ago. Thanks, Scott
__________________
Please check out my YouTube channel for vintage/classic car and truck builds and shenanigans! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq61KxKp1Is&t=14s |
#24
|
||||
|
||||
Also, how can I check to see if the purple wire is working? Can I hook the starter up (without bolting it to the engine) and have someone bump the key while I'm holding a test light to the S terminal?
And any ideas on how to confirm whether it could be the neutral safety switch? This car has a floor shift automatic trans; I'm guessing its on the shifter mechanism, right? Thanks
__________________
Please check out my YouTube channel for vintage/classic car and truck builds and shenanigans! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq61KxKp1Is&t=14s |
#25
|
||||
|
||||
Make sure the transmission is in park or neutral, the parking brake is set and the key is off. Now make sure again.
Use a screwdriver to jump the S terminal to the large terminal on the solenoid that the battery cable connects to. If the engine cranks over (it may even start until you remove the screwdriver) the problem is in the circuit from the ignition switch start position through the safety switch on the shift linkage to the S terminal. If the engine doesn't crank over, but you can hear the solenoid pull in and stay pulled in the problem is in the starter or the solenoid. If the engine doesn't crank, but you can hear the solenoid clicking many times, the problem is either at the battery, the battery cables or bad connections on either end of the battery cables.
__________________
My Pontiac is a '57 GMC with its original 347" Pontiac V8 and dual-range Hydra-Matic. |
The Following User Says Thank You to Bill Hanlon For This Useful Post: | ||
#26
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Thanks
__________________
Please check out my YouTube channel for vintage/classic car and truck builds and shenanigans! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq61KxKp1Is&t=14s |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
If you bench tested your starter/solenoid combo and it turns over and the Bendix kicks out the starter drive there is only so many things that can be wrong with it. Bad ground, purple wire is getting no power due to bad ignition switch or that N/S switch. If its a N/O switch, normally open and makes contact when in park or neutral you could jump that switch. But then it starts in any gear. Bet its you N/S switch or its connections. |
#28
|
||||
|
||||
Ignition switch contacts have corrosion from sitting unused. Clean up the contacts with contact cleaner and working the key back and forth.
__________________
Triple Black 1971 GTO |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Time to get a second set of hands to help you. Take your voltmeter and with someone working the key work your way backwards from the starter until you find where you are losing your voltage. If all else fails you can always bypass some of the interior parts using either a starter relay (Mopar ones work well) or a Ford type solenoid.
|
#30
|
||||
|
||||
I assume you had the starter mounted or had the starter grounded when trying the jumper wire from battery to the "S"S terminal, right?
George
__________________
"...out to my ol'55, I pulled away slowly, feeling so holy, god knows i was feeling alive"....written by Tom Wait from the Eagles' Live From The Forum |
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to george kujanski For This Useful Post: | ||
#31
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I can try again, but with a jumper cable going from the starter body to the frame. Thanks!
__________________
Please check out my YouTube channel for vintage/classic car and truck builds and shenanigans! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq61KxKp1Is&t=14s |
#32
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Yes, you will likely have a different outcome and will get it figured out quickly! |
The Following User Says Thank You to Shiny For This Useful Post: | ||
#33
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I just connected a jumper cable to the negative terminal and the starter (starter not installed; it's wired up but sitting in the saddle of my floor jack). Tried to start. Nothing. Then I connected a jumper wire from the positive terminal on the battery to the S terminal on the solenoid. Contact! It's spinning over. So, that narrows it down, right? The starter and solenoid are good (and the grounds, too?) but I need to find out why the purple wire isn't getting power to the battery with the key. I think my possible issues are: 1. Key switch. 2. Neutral safety switch. 3. A break/loose connection in the purple wire somewhere. Thoughts?
__________________
Please check out my YouTube channel for vintage/classic car and truck builds and shenanigans! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq61KxKp1Is&t=14s |
#34
|
||||
|
||||
Woo hoo!
Yes, I think you got it. The purple wire does carry significant current so every connection is an opportunity to drop voltage if the contact resistance is high. The fact that you heard "clicking" says you don't have a complete "open", which makes it more tricky to isolate. Goatracer1 lays out the "analytical" approach. The other end of the spectrum is to replace everything. Without a voltmeter, you could use a jumper wire (12 gauge would not be too small), attach one end to your S terminal solidly, and start walking backwards to the starter switch until you can isolate the weak connection. Do you have a wiring diagram that shows all the connections between the battery and the S terminal? |
#35
|
||||
|
||||
And don't forget what I was telling you about the purple wire in the first place, it gets baked over the years and will become a resistor. A volt meter would be more useful than a trouble light because even at low voltage it will light that bulb but the voltage may be only five or six volts when you need at least 10 or so applied by the purple wire to the S terminal.
Basically, I snipped my purple wire about 4 inches from the firewall under the hood and spliced in a new wire. I even made it pluggable because at the time I wasn't 100% sure if it was going to hold up. Now I have a place where I can unplug it and jumper it to the battery if I ever need to. I even made a jumper with a push button so that I can bump the engine while adjusting valves and that kind of stuff.
__________________
Greg Reid Palmetto, Georgia |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Greg Reid For This Useful Post: | ||
#36
|
||||
|
||||
Just for information....the starter spinning is a good sign, however keep in mind the situation is different when it's cranking the engine, in the following way: Unloaded, the starter motor draws a lot less current than when cranking the engine.
Assume the purple wire works. Once the bendix drive pulls in, the solenoid internals connect the battery wire to the starter motor, and the starter starts to draw, say 400 amps. if there is a bad connection in the battery-to-starter, or a weak battery, the poor connection cannot sustain 400 amps and the voltage to the starter drops to a low value. The lower voltage causes the solenoid to drop out, the voltage rises, and the cycle repeats. Again this most likely happens with a weak battery or poor battery connections. Several hundred amps will show a weak spot if it exists. George
__________________
"...out to my ol'55, I pulled away slowly, feeling so holy, god knows i was feeling alive"....written by Tom Wait from the Eagles' Live From The Forum |
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to george kujanski For This Useful Post: | ||
#37
|
||||
|
||||
George - I understood the intact solenoid wiring in the car did not activate the starter, yet a single-wire jumper from battery to S terminal did... Doesn't this sound like a high resistance in the "purple wire/NSS/ignition switch" circuit?
As to the ground, you clamped a physical cable between the starter and the frame when you compared the car wiring to your jumper, correct? And the positive cable was still connected between starter and battery, correct? To George's point, spinning without a load will not draw as much current so you could still have a bad motor or bad contacts inside the solenoid but seems you can now bolt the starter back on and use a jumper to the solenoid to find out... You already replaced the solenoid, correct? You might want to repeat the "old vs new" solenoid test with your now "known good" ground but if your recent success was with a new solenoid, I'm not sure it's worth going back to check out your old one.. |
#38
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BB70 For This Useful Post: | ||
#39
|
||||
|
||||
Shiny: I am unclear if bulletpruf tried the purple wire when the starter was unbolted from the car and grounded externally. In any case, the heavier load of a fog lite should confirm if the purple circuit is good.
George
__________________
"...out to my ol'55, I pulled away slowly, feeling so holy, god knows i was feeling alive"....written by Tom Wait from the Eagles' Live From The Forum |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to george kujanski For This Useful Post: | ||
#40
|
||||
|
||||
My responses below in ALL CAPS
Quote:
__________________
Please check out my YouTube channel for vintage/classic car and truck builds and shenanigans! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq61KxKp1Is&t=14s |
The Following User Says Thank You to bulletpruf For This Useful Post: | ||
Reply |
|
|