[Hammered]

Well I finally updated my website after dynoing my EFI combo at KRE on February 24th. First, I can't say enough good things about Jeff & Mark Kauffman as well as Ken on their staff. All around great people. They took care of the long block with their usual skill and care while I handled the air, fuel and EFI parts of the build. They worked with me to pull it all together and to dyno tune it. The intake manifold and fuel system were assemble by myself and the ECM was preprogrammed before delivery to KRE for installation as a unit onto the engine. A second trip was scheduled to perform the dyno testing with Jeff at the dyno controls and myself at the laptop. As they say, the best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry. A labeling error by Edelbrock left us unkowingly dynoing an engine with 29 lb/hr injectors rather than the 44 lb/hr injectors that the ECM was programmed to control. After setting the WOT portion of the VE table to its maximum values and lowering the complimentary AF ratio values to 12:1, we succeeded in driving the injectors into saturation with the engine still wanting more fuel. Still, we achieved 529 hp @ 5600 rpm and 559 ft-lb torque at 4500 rpm - not bad for such puny injectors. By the end of the dyno session my suspiscions were with the injectors and these suspicions were confirmed earlier this week via communication with Edelbrock's very responsive tech department. I sent the injectors to their warranty department today and hopefully they will do the right thing. Details of the build up are in my EFI Tech Section. While I'm very pleased with the results, Jeff believes that there is another 10-20 hp or more in the engine. I brought the engine home but am contemplating another dyno session to get it right.



A message to those of you waiting for a kit - I don't believe that there is much advantage in waiting for a kit. I put this together with virtually no EFI experience and the motor started without any fuss-even with grossly undersized injectors! I even correctly diagnosed the injector problem and correctly guessed which wrong injectors I had been sold-LOL. It just takes some studying and some willingness to spend money on such things as a wideband 02 sensor. I can't imagine how hard it would be to tune one of these without a WBO2. There's very little I would change with this build-up if I had the chance to do it again.

John

[Hammered]

Well I finally updated my website after dynoing my EFI combo at KRE on February 24th. First, I can't say enough good things about Jeff & Mark Kauffman as well as Ken on their staff. All around great people. They took care of the long block with their usual skill and care while I handled the air, fuel and EFI parts of the build. They worked with me to pull it all together and to dyno tune it. The intake manifold and fuel system were assemble by myself and the ECM was preprogrammed before delivery to KRE for installation as a unit onto the engine. A second trip was scheduled to perform the dyno testing with Jeff at the dyno controls and myself at the laptop. As they say, the best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry. A labeling error by Edelbrock left us unkowingly dynoing an engine with 29 lb/hr injectors rather than the 44 lb/hr injectors that the ECM was programmed to control. After setting the WOT portion of the VE table to its maximum values and lowering the complimentary AF ratio values to 12:1, we succeeded in driving the injectors into saturation with the engine still wanting more fuel. Still, we achieved 529 hp @ 5600 rpm and 559 ft-lb torque at 4500 rpm - not bad for such puny injectors. By the end of the dyno session my suspiscions were with the injectors and these suspicions were confirmed earlier this week via communication with Edelbrock's very responsive tech department. I sent the injectors to their warranty department today and hopefully they will do the right thing. Details of the build up are in my EFI Tech Section. While I'm very pleased with the results, Jeff believes that there is another 10-20 hp or more in the engine. I brought the engine home but am contemplating another dyno session to get it right.



A message to those of you waiting for a kit - I don't believe that there is much advantage in waiting for a kit. I put this together with virtually no EFI experience and the motor started without any fuss-even with grossly undersized injectors! I even correctly diagnosed the injector problem and correctly guessed which wrong injectors I had been sold-LOL. It just takes some studying and some willingness to spend money on such things as a wideband 02 sensor. I can't imagine how hard it would be to tune one of these without a WBO2. There's very little I would change with this build-up if I had the chance to do it again.

John

[larry davis]

Nice!

So how much do you have in just the EFI system?

[70 lucerne lemans]

Incredible!I cant imagine the time and effort your project has taken.Thanks for the informative web site,a 67or 68 conv. bird is my next project.

[quicksilver97ta]

Congratualtions! Very impressive set-up John!

[PonchoV8]

Very sweet. I'm surprised at how few people seem to be doing this with these old engines.

[larry davis]

I started out my new 428 combo w/ a Projection 4 system, but it would not supply enough fuel.
So I'm back to a Davinci 4150 until the EFI aftermarket industry catches up w/ Pontiac. Then I'll be back. My cam's grind is EFI specific, but works damn well w/ the carb too.
My entire fuel system is compatable as well, just need to swap springs in the regulator and adjust for EFI.

[Hammered]

Thank you all for the compliments-I'm very happy with my progress so far.

Larry,

The aftermarket is there. Everything in my system is off-the-shelf and bolt-on. One of my goals was to prove that an off-the-shelf system could be assembled and implemented without any special capabilities or knowledge of EFI. As for time invested, I started collecting parts in Oct., completed assembly in Nov. and studied EFI over the Christmas holiday and programmed the ECM. January was pretty much a wash waiting to get on the dyno. I've got more $$ in the system than I care to think about. There is about $4k in the basic components, but $900 of that is the WBO2. The Edelbrock system which everyone is waiting on will along with costing less:

be limited to batch injection,
require a custom chip to be burned for every major engine component change,
require proprietary sensors,
be incompatible with WB 02 sensors, and
lack the tuning flexibility that most other systems offer.

I think Edelbrock is going to fill a definite niche while avoiding competition with Accel & FAST which have been in the market place a lot longer, but I don't think folks have tried understand these systems well enough to know what the trade-offs are. In other words, you get what you pay for. I'm going to try to post a parts list at some point for anyone wanting to duplicate my setup.

John

[Skip Fix]

Larry , are you using the Commander 950 with an O2 sensor? The new wide band and PRO upgrade? It allows wide band and you can set the AF ratio you want.I don't know that their fuel pump will supply enough but the injector pods should.

[Skip Fix]

John, Baffled gas tank? If not any starvation in corners?

[larry davis]

No Skip, it is the older Projection 4 TBI setup that supposedly flows 950cfm. No sensors, etc... Not enough fuel getting to the engine at mid to upper RPMS. Say about 4000 and up. I used my Aeromotive pump, controller, and bypass regulator along w/ -8 supply and return lines. The TB itself has 1/4" NPT fittings/bungs as the supply and return.
The fuel system I have will support 1200HP.
I don't have near that, but it will support that level. Future plans are to retro a T2 modified w/ bungs and a similar system to hammered. Meanwhile I'm gonna spank it w/ the Davinci.

[Skip Fix]

Maybe upgrade with the Commander and the O2 sensor even the plain" one. It will run multiports too when you make that upgrade. Iknow soem of the old ones ahd a controller with knobs. A friend had one on a BBC but always had to tweak them almost daily.

[Hammered]

Skip,

The car is a long way from driving, but the tank is baffled to prevent starvation issues. It came with a 255 liter/hr fuel pump that should be able to support a little over 800 hp.

Larry,

Which throttle body injectors do you have? I thought the smallest injectors with their 4-v throttle bodies were 70 lb/hr. That should easily get you over 500 hp.

I have heard the same thing as Skip about the older pot controlled systems requiring constant tweaking.

John

[larry davis]

Mine is the POT style w/ the recessed adj. knobs on the controller. I do believe the injectors were large enough capacity, but again there were other restrictions keeping it from reving, much less pulling, above 4200-4400RPM, that's wher it fell flat on it's face.

[taalltheway]

I have just installed a Projection4 on my 400. All i can say is that it is absolutely not running out of breath. I pulled it to 5000 rpm and it was still pulling very hard. Since my bottom end is stock i do not rev much further to keep it alive. Throttle response and driveability are so much better than any carb i had before. The only extra i have is an air/fuel-ratio-meter with a lamda-sensor. So i can see when i am driving if the engine is running rich or lean. Without it i think it would be virtually impossible to set the system up correctly. The manual recommends to set the six knobs with nothing more than your seat in the pants feeling - i think that explains why so many people were unhappy with these units while i can only say good things about it.

So if you have one of these old units - buy the extra meter.

Another VERY common mistake is that most people try to cut corners with the fuel lines. You absolutely need two new lines. A lot of people try to use the original line etc. The EFI has a much higher flow than a carb. A lot of the fuel is not burned but returned to the tank. If the lines are too small the EFI will starve or flood and it will NEVER run right. I must say i was a bit frightened when i ordered the old Holley system based on all the bad things i read about it on the internet. But my first testdrive completely won me over. EFI is definteley worth it. And if you have an old Holley 4D it can be made to run very well.

[speedshopmike]

i'm running an old projection 4 on my 463; lightly worked d ports, performer, 224/230 on 112deg, rhoads, headers, usual **** - no problem at all fueling at high rpm.
yeah, u gotta babysit it while u drive; this weekend im installing a closed loop kit that should alleviate most/all of that crap.
i've had it to 5800 rpm; am running an air'fuel meter; all good.
larry, something's up w/ yours - bad pump, clogged pre or post filter, one or more bad injectors (check the spray cones w/ a flashlight while it's running)

all that said, it's the most primitive "efi" there is - the "computer" isnt - it's just full of analog pots.