[60sstuff]

Yes I know this topic has been discussed here before.

After closer viewing of the two "Best Untouched Factory Original 65 Engine Bays" (just my opinion) on this forum I see faint markings on the firewalls.

First pic of Option 382's 65 (BAL Built) seems to show a "12" beneath the underhood lamp.

Second pic shows RAII 4-speed's 65 (BF Built) with the letter "A" next to the voltage regulator.

Cool Stuff when viewing "Original Cars"!

[Option 382]

And I did not know I even had that on my car. You know my car better than I do!

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Option 382

And I did not know I even had that on my car. You know my car better than I do!

I've found sometimes things pop out in the photos that you don't notice in real life.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 60sstuff

Yes I know this topic has been discussed here before.

After closer viewing of the two "Best Untouched Factory Original 65 Engine Bays" (just my opinion) on this forum I see faint markings on the firewalls.

First pic of Option 382's 65 (BAL Built) seems to show a "12" beneath the underhood lamp.

Second pic shows RAII 4-speed's 65 (BF Built) with the letter "A" next to the voltage regulator.

Cool Stuff when viewing "Original Cars"!

Not sure how I feel about being left out of the discussion... Am I number 3? (I can live with that).

I will remind you that the cylinder heads/valvecovers and tripower currently installed on my car are not original but everything else (anything related to paint or appearance) is original.

Having said that the only markings I see are what appears to be an "OK" under the voltage regulator (I've never removed it to find out for sure) and a large "A" in the middle, which I'm sure denotes Starlight Black.

There is also a small rubber stamped "Line Test ok" on the cowl side, way down behind the fender well.

K

[60sstuff]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Not sure how I feel about being left out of the discussion...

Good Morning K,

I have praised you and your Awesome 65 Survivor in the past but as you are the first one to admit in other threads your GTO is not completely factory original under the hood.

I was careful to mention untouched "Engine Bays" which those two above mentioned 65's have.

In addition I don't have much of a selection of your engine bay pics like I do of others. I wish to have more clear detail photos of your car to help promote what these cars came like off the line 49 years ago.

Regards, Chris :-)

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 60sstuff

I have praised you and your Awesome 65 Survivor in the past but as you are the first one to admit in other threads your GTO is not completely factory original under the hood.

Agreed; by my own admission. Pics added above.

On a related note, I consider the Ed Lis car to be the lowest mileage most unmolested '65 GTO in existance. You seem to have some concerns with Ed's car and don't seem to share that perspective. I am interested to know why that is, so that you and I can be on the same page.

Feel free to send me a PM if you do not think it is appropriate to respond here.

Thanks in advance -

K

[60sstuff]

My respects to the late Ed Lis.

We all have our opinions and mine is how could a car such as the 65 you seem to put above all others have a "full chrome dash bezel" (not painted black) and a "Tempest" tail panel bezel that a blind man can detect the ribs are noticeably different??

The guys on the line with that car must have had a really bad day. Plus no one else noticed those two large glaring issues at any quality control check?

Keith, you understand better that any of us how the system seems to work but you have to admit those two areas of the Ed Lis 65 are "questionable".

For this reason I will always put a handful of 65's including yours above that car when it comes to OEM correctness!

[Option 382]

This thread shows some of the questionable items on his car. The last post just makes me wonder about the car.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ight=4200+mile

Note: The late Ed Lis' user name is 1969z280.

[RAII 4-speed]

Originally Posted by Option 382

And I did not know I even had that on my car. You know my car better than I do!

I am with you as well I DID NOT know of that A on there.... WOW 60s Stuff you have good eyes!
I also have a red X on the firewall that is very easy to see , I will try to attach a picture.....

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 60sstuff

My respects to the late Ed Lis.

We all have our opinions and mine is how could a car such as the 65 you seem to put above all others have a "full chrome dash bezel" (not painted black) and a "Tempest" tail panel bezel that a blind man can detect the ribs are noticeably different??

The guys on the line with that car must have had a really bad day. Plus no one else noticed those two large glaring issues at any quality control check?

Keith, you understand better that any of us how the system seems to work but you have to admit those two areas of the Ed Lis 65 are "questionable".

For this reason I will always put a handful of 65's including yours above that car when it comes to OEM correctness!

Re: "Full chrome" bezel: so there is a concern beyond the missing woodgrain applique? I did not realize that. I am willing to concede that's mighty odd.

Re: Tempest tailpanel - you are right about my factory experience and in view of that I'd be willing to chalk that up as a factory build error.

It has been statistically shown that 100% inspection is not 100% effective. It's mighty hard to be perfect when you are building one car per minute, over a long period of time, especially in a zombie like state.

Admittedly it should have been caught but could have been missed if the inspector was new, not that well versed yet, or was moonlighting as a baseball umpire.

I used to think we were perfect but have been humbled by the number of factory mistakes pointed out to me now, especially big no-no's like VIN errors.

K

[RAII 4-speed]

[QUOTE=the only markings I see are what appears to be an "OK" under the voltage regulator (I've never removed it to find out for sure) and a large "A" in the middle, which I'm sure denotes Starlight Black.

K[/QUOTE]

Keith Both your car and my car have the same A in the same area.
I disagree that it stands for starlight black as my car is Blue charcoal ext and blue interior.

[JAKE 64]

Originally Posted by RAII 4-speed

I am with you as well I DID NOT know of that A on there.... WOW 60s Stuff you have good eyes!
I also have a red X on the firewall that is very easy to see , I will try to attach a picture.....

RAII 4-speed

I would wager that if you removed the regulator, you will find a second digit representing the upper body code. On the photos below, the A was faintly visible under the black firewall paint, and the second A (hardtop) was only visible when the regulator was removed, again under the black firewall paint.

In the first photo, the A is barely visible to the right (passenger) side of the three regulator retaining bolts. In the second photo, the A is barely visible inside and below the three regulator retaining bolts.

I have only noted the use of the "X" (also have noted the "O") on cars made in Fremont. Unlike most of the notations/markings/stamps used at the other three * plants, the X's or O's have been provided above the black firewall paint. I have only noted the X and O in white on the '64's, never in red (perhaps red oxide primer coming through). Yours is the first use of the X on a '65 that I have seen, although I'm not prone to study '65's to any great extent. There was some discussion on the use of the X and O last year, as well as should these markings be above or below the black firewall/panel paint.

* The Pontiac Plant used three rubber stampings on the firewall that was above the black firewall paint.

[RAII 4-speed]

Originally Posted by JAKE 64

RAII 4-speed

I would wager that if you removed the regulator, you will find a second digit representing the upper body code. On the photos below, the A was faintly visible under the black firewall paint, and the second A (hardtop) was only visible when the regulator was removed, again under the black firewall paint.

In the first photo, the A is barely visible to the right (passenger) side of the three regulator retaining bolts. In the second photo, the A is barely visible inside and below the three regulator retaining bolts.

I have only noted the use of the "X" (also have noted the "O") on cars made in Fremont. Unlike most of the notations/markings/stamps used at the other three * plants, the X's or O's have been provided above the black firewall paint. I have only noted the X and O in white on the '64's, never in red (perhaps red oxide primer coming through). Yours is the first use of the X on a '65 that I have seen, although I'm not prone to study '65's to any great extent. There was some discussion on the use of the X and O last year, as well as should these markings be above or below the black firewall/panel paint.

* The Pontiac Plant used three rubber stampings on the firewall that was above the black firewall paint.

Jake, what do you think the A on my car represents?
BTW, my car is Blue exterior with blue interior and it has a white Convertible top.
And my car was built in Freemont first week of December 1964
And the red X If I wanted to, I could wipe it off as it is above the paint on the firewall and no there is no red primer showing thru.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by RAII 4-speed

Keith Both your car and my car have the same A in the same area.
I disagree that it stands for starlight black as my car is Blue charcoal ext and blue interior.

I don't think there's much room for debate on this; we know through anecdotal evidence (interviews with plant employees) and study of actual vehicles that the paint code was added as a "heads up" to the downstream workers what color was coming.

Here's one from '64: "W" in this context = Nocturne Blue.

K

[RAII 4-speed]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I don't think there's much room for debate on this; we know through anecdotal evidence (interviews with plant employees) and study of actual vehicles that the paint code was added as a "heads up" to the downstream workers what color was coming.

Here's one from '64: "W" in this context = Nocturne Blue.

K

Keith, I think there is a lot of room for debate here as no one including you have answered the question "What do you think the A on my car represents?"
A does not = Starlight black on a blue car......

[65blackplate]

not too much to see on my cars firewall as it has been touched up at some point
but there is some under hood markings you guys may be interested in

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by RAII 4-speed

Keith, I think there is a lot of room for debate here as no one including you have answered the question "What do you think the A on my car represents?"
A does not = Starlight black on a blue car......

I'm not convinced that's an "A". There is a thick horizontal stroke above the top of the letter.

I think you would need to remove the condensor to be sure.

K

[RAII 4-speed]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I'm not convinced that's an "A". There is a thick horizontal stroke above the top of the letter.

I think you would need to remove the condensor to be sure.

K

Looks like an A to me....

[60sstuff]

As of now it sure looks like the letter "A".

But maybe something else is hiding under a portion of the voltage regulator?

John's 65 GTO is a Blue Charcoal as indicated by his documentation and codes with the letter "B" on data plate.

That firewall mark does not look like any kind of a "B" to me.

Note - The poor masking off of the data plate before painting the firewall at Fremont. Good Factory Stuff!