[Rapdron]

Patrick

E-mail me when you want to buy yourself a Christmas present

I have an AM/FM & an AM Wonderbar, both working, and a 4 way power bucket seat track with switch & side skirts/moldings.
I even have a spare recliner passenger side seat frame.

Ron
rapdron@gmail.com

[chris malish]

The car market is tough these days on cars that are not perfect. Old cars are worth big money to enthusiasts and collectors only who are looking at the car for its investment potential. Truly special cars are still getting very high dollar. Cars that are cool but not truly special have dropped precipitously.

Regular hobbyists are fine with clones. Clones are much cheaper to build but frequently bring less than the sum of their parts -- because they are not the collector/investor's "genuine article."

Several factors come into play when investors/collectors look at cars:
How was the car equipped originally? The more high performance options, the rare it tends to be, and the more its worth now. A 67 GTO with a 2 bbl is rarer than the base engine but not as desireable to a collector, and is worth much less.

Which of its original equipment does it still have?
Loss of the original block, a major component to the car, will drive the value down for a collector/investor. Big time.

What kind of condition is it in?/How many miles does it have on it?
The nicer the car, the more its worth. the more original the car, while still being nice, the more its worth. The fewer the miles, the more it is worth. If the sheetmetal is all original, it is worth more. Frequently, if the sheetmetal must be repaired, a collector/investor would rather see a patch than the whole panel replaced.

Modifications:
Invisible modifications like steering upgrades or engine rebuilds with high performance parts are OK and may add value. Changing to incorrect parts (like later heads) tend to not help.

Original color combo:
this actually makes a pretty big difference in what the car is worth. For example, green cars tend to not do so well, while black, red, and white, and dark blue cars seem to do better. Black interior is generally safe, green not so much.

Added options:
added options tend to not hurt the value (especially if the original equipment is retained for possible later reinstallation if new owner so desires), but frequently they don't add enough value to the car to justify the expense. So, it might cost you $2,500 for a restored 3x2 set up for your 66 GTO that was originally equipped with a 4bbl, but that doesn't mean the value of the car will increase by $2,500 or more. But it won't cause the value to go down.

This car was nicely equipped originally and fairly rare. So that's a plus. But it is missing its block, so it will never bring top dollar by definition, and frankly is often the difference between a $10K car and a $20K car. The two guys each with a million dollars to spend on a 2+2 (and willing to spend it) only want to spend it on the very best. Missing the block could cause such buyers to keep on looking. At least there's a real 421 in there. If you can find the original block, even if it is bad shape, that would get you back close to where you'd like to be.

The car also looks good in pictures, but the pictures are small and its hard to see the actual condition of the body and paint. If truly nice, it is worth more. How is the underside? that makes a big difference too.

Without a better feel for the paint and body, and its originality, I'd guess this car could go at auction for as low as 15K to as high as 35K. That's a big spread, but hard to say better based on limited info. Also, remember, in order to get good money at an auction, you've got to have at LEAST two guys who both think the car is cool AND have the ability and desire to spend the money....

Good luck,

Chris

[Bills 2+2]

Just incase anyone wanted to see them.

[Bills 2+2]

Last one.

[BigBrother]

Chris is right on about the values. This car is in a weird spot. The big problem I find is valuing the driver quality 2+2's. Fully restored this is a mid to high $30's car.

Want to find the value fast. Take 20 good pix and put in on ebay....you will know in 1 week what it is worth

On a side note I am awarding both Chris and PontiacLady the award for "Best 2+2 buys of 2010"


Hopefully I can award myself next year

Originally Posted by chris malish

The car market is tough these days on cars that are not perfect. Old cars are worth big money to enthusiasts and collectors only who are looking at the car for its investment potential. Truly special cars are still getting very high dollar. Cars that are cool but not truly special have dropped precipitously.

Regular hobbyists are fine with clones. Clones are much cheaper to build but frequently bring less than the sum of their parts -- because they are not the collector/investor's "genuine article."

Several factors come into play when investors/collectors look at cars:
How was the car equipped originally? The more high performance options, the rare it tends to be, and the more its worth now. A 67 GTO with a 2 bbl is rarer than the base engine but not as desireable to a collector, and is worth much less.

Which of its original equipment does it still have?
Loss of the original block, a major component to the car, will drive the value down for a collector/investor. Big time.

What kind of condition is it in?/How many miles does it have on it?
The nicer the car, the more its worth. the more original the car, while still being nice, the more its worth. The fewer the miles, the more it is worth. If the sheetmetal is all original, it is worth more. Frequently, if the sheetmetal must be repaired, a collector/investor would rather see a patch than the whole panel replaced.

Modifications:
Invisible modifications like steering upgrades or engine rebuilds with high performance parts are OK and may add value. Changing to incorrect parts (like later heads) tend to not help.

Original color combo:
this actually makes a pretty big difference in what the car is worth. For example, green cars tend to not do so well, while black, red, and white, and dark blue cars seem to do better. Black interior is generally safe, green not so much.

Added options:
added options tend to not hurt the value (especially if the original equipment is retained for possible later reinstallation if new owner so desires), but frequently they don't add enough value to the car to justify the expense. So, it might cost you $2,500 for a restored 3x2 set up for your 66 GTO that was originally equipped with a 4bbl, but that doesn't mean the value of the car will increase by $2,500 or more. But it won't cause the value to go down.

This car was nicely equipped originally and fairly rare. So that's a plus. But it is missing its block, so it will never bring top dollar by definition, and frankly is often the difference between a $10K car and a $20K car. The two guys each with a million dollars to spend on a 2+2 (and willing to spend it) only want to spend it on the very best. Missing the block could cause such buyers to keep on looking. At least there's a real 421 in there. If you can find the original block, even if it is bad shape, that would get you back close to where you'd like to be.

The car also looks good in pictures, but the pictures are small and its hard to see the actual condition of the body and paint. If truly nice, it is worth more. How is the underside? that makes a big difference too.

Without a better feel for the paint and body, and its originality, I'd guess this car could go at auction for as low as 15K to as high as 35K. That's a big spread, but hard to say better based on limited info. Also, remember, in order to get good money at an auction, you've got to have at LEAST two guys who both think the car is cool AND have the ability and desire to spend the money....

Good luck,

Chris

[65 Cat 2+2]

Out of curiosity, what would be the price difference between a 2+2 that is PHS confirmed to the "T" and one that was restored but not to the PHS specs. Say for instance added options and painted different color. Both have 421 tripowers, but one was originally a 4 bbl and maybe did not come with the added options like wood wheel, AM/FM, tach etc.... But today they look the same and have the same options, just one had options added along the way and one came with them when new. Ballpark what kid of money difference would that make?

One needs to keep in mind that our hobby is segmented by the owners' purposes & desires:
1. Some are looking for a car that is a fun & reliable driver - local shows, cruise nights, ride down the boulevard, etc. Appearance is everything, originality not so much.
2. Some seek the thrill of competition on the track. Originality is not critical as it doesn't enhance (may even inhibit) performance. Condition may be unimportant at purchase time, since some race cars are so heavily modified as to be almost unrecognizable.
3. Others like competing at judged shows. If the car is entered in stock or preservation classes, originality is of primary importance, cosmetics still important, but secondary.
The marketplace offers cars for every owner, but the values vary widely based on how many cars are available for each purpose. If your wallet is thin you'll find plenty of driver-quality cars, maybe with an incorrect engine or replaced body panels.

I don't know why people get hung up on it being to the "T" original

Hitman has a lot of company in the hobby - this car would suit most buyers. But the people in #3 above know that "good enough" is not the standard to which cars are judged. The difference between a POCI Gold and Silver is imperceptible to the average observer. AACA judging is even more strict.
If you want to compete in a "survivor" class at a judged show, you'll find very, very few cars from which to choose. The oft-repeated phrase "It's only original once" rules. One may pay twice as much for a true survivor of a desirable model, compared to the local-show trophy winner. Cars worthy of competing in a strictly judged "stock" class are a bit more plentiful than a survivor, but you'd still expect to pay more than for a driver.
The values are even more skewed when dealing with factory performance cars. Finding an original-engined Tri-Power 4-speed GTO, or HO equipped B-body is much harder than a base-engine 4BBL car. They were usually built in lower quantities. They were typically ordered to be driven hard. They were favorite targets of the local car thief. Not surprisingly, their chances of survival were correspondingly smaller.
The car we're discussing in this thread looks like a very presentable driver. It will never be an original engine car, much less a survivor. I do not mean to sound disparaging - it's a great car that I'd be proud to own & drive. But I wouldn't buy it with the intention of showing it.
So it's a numbers game - appealing to fewer buyers lowers the value. Prices are very subjective, but personally I think a #'s correct, PHS documented original Tri-Power 4-speed 2+2 is worth 75%-85% more than a base engine automatic car, or one with an incorrect engine.
As for non-original options, as long as the original parts are retained with the car and easily re-installed, I don't think the value is affected. My car did not come with power steering - I converted it. I could install the original steering box in a matter of hours, so no harm done. If I had a 4BBL car & added Tri-Power, I would be sure to retain the original intake for a future owner.
When it comes to color changes, I would not change the color unless it was really undesirable. Most times a color change will hurt the value of a car, but I've seen rare cases (some browns and greens especially) where a color change helped boost a car's value (you've heard of "re-sale red").
Bottom line - any car is only worth what a seller & buyer agree to at a particular time.
The more buyers interested, the higher than value.
It's a good thing that we have moderately priced cars available in the market. It's also a good thing that there are enough concours correct cars for comparison purposes & historic documentation.

[Bills 2+2]

When in 1964 did Pontiac start building cars for the 65 model year?

[65 Cat 2+2]

Others may know better (I think some forum members may have worked for GM back in the day), but I recollect that model year change-over used to be around July. August '64 would probably be the earliest build date.

[Engine-Ear]

I just gotta say, ALL of you guys have made some GREAT posts in this thread.

Having done what BigBrother suggested with my '62 Safari with no results, I am going to respectfully disagree. In my opinion, the eBay 'market value' idea would require an every-eight-weeks listing thru the course of a year so that you can get a statistical convergence (which I didn't do)...of course then you have a year of market variance sprinkled into the mix.

Slightly off-topic, but in a way I am glad that my collection lacks the 'special' factor...my GP's original engine is long gone, my Safari is a heavily patina-ed survivor and the others are nice but nothing Jay Leno is gonna beat down my door for...

Anyway, keep us abreast of how things transpire.

[Deadhead]

Originally Posted by Engine-Ear

I just gotta say, ALL of you guys have made some GREAT posts in this thread.

Having done what BigBrother suggested with my '62 Safari with no results, I am going to respectfully disagree. In my opinion, the eBay 'market value' idea would require an every-eight-weeks listing thru the course of a year so that you can get a statistical convergence (which I didn't do)...of course then you have a year of market variance sprinkled into the mix.

Slightly off-topic, but in a way I am glad that my collection lacks the 'special' factor...my GP's original engine is long gone, my Safari is a heavily patina-ed survivor and the others are nice but nothing Jay Leno is gonna beat down my door for...

Anyway, keep us abreast of how things transpire.

All you gotta do is do a 'completed listings' search on your favorite e-bay search right now, and you will find that for 14 pages of stuff that is completed only about 1 page worth has sold or had bids. I am glad I did not do this before I listed the stuff I just did or I would have just bagged it. It is really bad b/c that means that even more stuff will end up turned into shipping containers or whatever.

[65 Cat 2+2]

Matt-
With the huge popularity of "rat rods", I would think your "heavily patina-ed survivor Safari" would have great marketability!

[BigBrother]

In defense of using ebay as a value gauge. I went back and looked at a lot of different completed auctions and would say it is darn accurate...even if it is not what the lister was wishing for. Most of the completes with "no bids" were because the lister put a "starting bid" amount above the cars value and the ones that had bids and did not sell looked pretty darn close to real value (again not wished for value).

[Deadhead]

Originally Posted by BigBrother

In defense of using ebay as a value gauge. I went back and looked at a lot of different completed auctions and would say it is darn accurate...even if it is not what the lister was wishing for. Most of the completes with "no bids" were because the lister put a "starting bid" amount above the cars value and the ones that had bids and did not sell looked pretty darn close to real value (again not wished for value).

Totally agree with the premise. Just making the observation that not much is selling. Gems priced right go.

[Bills 2+2]

I would like to thank everyone for all the GREAT posts in this thread as I have learned alot about Pontiac's. I have not come up with a price yet as I have to discuss more of this with the owner. I also want to get the car on the lift so I can take pics of everything. I got the PHS packet in the mail today which doesn't tell me much more than what they faxed to me but It tells me what I needed to know.

The owner bought this car believing it was a 421 ho tri-power car and didn't do his homework to make sure. In saying that he still loves the car. It seems odd that someone would stamp the WG and partial vin on the block and pass it off as a 421 HO tri-power when Pontiac didn't put the vin full or partial on the blocks from 64-67 from what Wallace racing says. It's nice to find all this out as I would not want to try to sell the car as something it's not and find out later what it is.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help, I will keep you informed.
Steve

[65WJ]

Your welcome, glad we could help. I know I love the car regardless and would love to have it next to mine.


patrick

[Hitman]

I have blinders on when it comes to these cars. Yours is awesome and I too would adore it. The next 65 I buy will be a hardtop 2+2 hardtop and I'm going to build it how I want. Good luck with the sale. If I win the lottery I'll be in touch.

[scorpio ps]

Originally Posted by Bills 2+2

yup all stock 454.

Dude, We got tractors that got moe yank than that. Very nice.

[Andre]

Did this car sell?

[Bills 2+2]

Originally Posted by scorpio ps

Dude, We got tractors that got moe yank than that. Very nice.

Thanks, I'm sure you do.

[Bills 2+2]

Originally Posted by Andre

Did this car sell?

The car is not being sold right now. My friend is in a nursing home and is terminal.
I go see him everyday and it's hard to see a really good friend go through this.

The car is being left to me and I'm going to hold on to it for right now. If things change I will let you all know.