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Old 08-25-2022, 06:54 PM
bob prichard bob prichard is offline
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Default Factory A/C on original Tri-Power cars?

There is a 66 GTO on Bring A Trailer with “matching numbers” and PHS. PHS states original Tri-Power car, no A/C hi-lited on paperwork. Pictures of car show it has factory air conditioning and power windows, neither are shown on PHS paperwork. PHS claims that if car does not match paperwork, then something has been changed. Adding factory air to a non factory air car is a big deal. Just wondering if anyone has seen a GTO with factory air and 3-2s and/or a PHS with missing accessories? Thanks. I know this may seem complicated, but I think the car is a fraud and someone may get burned.

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Old 08-26-2022, 07:38 AM
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Nice upgrade using original GM system.

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Old 08-26-2022, 08:04 AM
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I've seen PHS wrong in both directions. The PHS for my 68 GTO shows power brakes. I bought the car from the original owner (who I knew) in 1976 with manual brakes. Hard to believe someone swapped out the power setup for manual unless it was done at the dealership before purchase for some reason.
I restored it WITH power brakes to match the PHS.

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Old 08-26-2022, 12:36 PM
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I've seen PHS wrong in both directions. The PHS for my 68 GTO shows power brakes. I bought the car from the original owner (who I knew) in 1976 with manual brakes. Hard to believe someone swapped out the power setup for manual unless it was done at the dealership before purchase for some reason.
I restored it WITH power brakes to match the PHS.
I once looked at a 70 Trans Am in a similar situation as this GTO. It turned out to be an Esprit that all the TA stuff had been added into and repainted. I think this GTO is a “rebodied” car. Its just too hard to add factory air and make it look factory with all the welding.

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Old 08-27-2022, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bob prichard View Post
I once looked at a 70 Trans Am in a similar situation as this GTO. It turned out to be an Esprit that all the TA stuff had been added into and repainted. I think this GTO is a “rebodied” car. Its just too hard to add factory air and make it look factory with all the welding.
This was my first thought. I'll add, back in the day, people removed factory AC, they didn't install it. And if they were inclined to add AC to a non-AC car, they would have done what everybody else did back then: go to Sears or Montgomery Wards and have an aftermarket system installed with the suitcase evaporator under the center of the dash. NOBODY was adding factory air to a non air car back in the day. Likely a re-body/VIN and Trim swap.

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Old 08-27-2022, 07:32 PM
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This was my first thought. I'll add, back in the day, people removed factory AC, they didn't install it. And if they were inclined to add AC to a non-AC car, they would have done what everybody else did back then: go to Sears or Montgomery Wards and have an aftermarket system installed with the suitcase evaporator under the center of the dash. NOBODY was adding factory air to a non air car back in the day. Likely a re-body/VIN and Trim swap.
Yes, I agree, I think the car was a fraud. I tried to tip off the seller and buyers, but seller acted clueless and let the auction run. I couldn’t believe how many people thought it was a great car and ignored my warnings. Of course, I couldn’t prove it, but I think the only way to prove it would be to pull the suitcase off the firewall and check for numbers there. I have been told the VIN is stamped there. Also, I have tried to find factory literature to see if A/C was even available on a 3-2 stick shift car.

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Old 08-27-2022, 10:11 PM
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I removed the factory AC from my 1967 GTO when I started to seriously race it. I sold the whole thing to someone that I knew who installed it on his car. So people do install factory AC.

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Old 08-28-2022, 11:59 AM
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I removed the factory AC from my 1967 GTO when I started to seriously race it. I sold the whole thing to someone that I knew who installed it on his car. So people do install factory AC.
Did it look perfect like a factory installation? I forgot to mention that this car had power windows, also not on the PHS.

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Old 08-28-2022, 04:58 PM
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The hardest part to change when converting an early A-body to A/C is the sheetmetal at the RH kick panel where the evaporator air outlet is. The A/C cars are significantly different there and if that panel had been replaced, it should be obvious with non-factory welding present. To inspect, remove the plastic kick panel cover and look at the steel panel carefully, especially the perimeter.

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Old 08-29-2022, 03:21 AM
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Quick story from the distant past. One of our GTO club members purchased a '65 GTO convertible that had what appeared to be factory air but PHS said no. Story ended up that DeLorean was scheduled to come out to California and visit dealers. He wanted a Mayfair Maize convertible with black top and interior and Tri-Power to drive around in the summer. There was none to be had so the Pontiac skunkworks installed the AC and shipped the car out to California before Delorean's arrival. Car was turned over to a dealership after the visit and sold. I saw the stripped down car during restoration and the firewall had been cut out large enough to install the unit and it wasn't done all that nicely since the surgery was covered up with the unit. Story of the restoration ended up in the Legend Magazine back then.

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Old 08-29-2022, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bob prichard View Post
Of course, I couldn’t prove it, but I think the only way to prove it would be to pull the suitcase off the firewall and check for numbers there. I have been told the VIN is stamped there.
There is no VIN stamped anywhere on the firewall, including under the HVAC box. At least there isn't on my '66 with factory air. There are no "hidden" VIN stampings anywhere else on the body for that matter. The frame should have the last 8 digits of the VIN stamped into the top of the driver side frame rail behind the rear wheel, but that's it.

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Old 08-29-2022, 10:35 AM
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I saw one Friday at the Shrewsberry Amish Market, not the first time I’ve seen it but happened to take a quick pic. If I see it again I’ll ask about it.



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Old 08-29-2022, 11:11 AM
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HERE is the auction listing for the car in question. PHS docs are included in the photo gallery.

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I saw one Friday at the Shrewsberry Amish Market, not the first time I’ve seen it but happened to take a quick pic. If I see it again I’ll ask about it.
There are a zillion examples of GTOs having Tri-Power added by owners rather than factory installed, and that's what I would suspect is the case with the white '65 you encountered.

What's unusual about the car at the center of discussion in this thread is that the PHS docs show it was a factory equipped Tri-Power car, and it has what appears to be a factory installed A/C system but no mention of it on the PHS docs. I agree with the notion that it's unlikely that someone actually added an OEM A/C system to this car after it left the factory. Whether or not it's a rebodied car versus just being a glitch with the PHS docs, I'm not qualified enough to tell. The rivets on the data plate and VIN tag look factory to me at least.

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Last edited by ZeGermanHam; 08-29-2022 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 08-29-2022, 01:27 PM
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I notice on the dash the HVAC controls don't seem to have a selection for AC ... is that normal? (I don't know much about 66s with AC)

If it was OEM added later they did a bang up job in the engine compartment, I'd never guess it wasn't original.

Has enough pics in the link that any 66 expert should be able to tell pretty quick.

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Old 08-29-2022, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
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I notice on the dash the HVAC controls don't seem to have a selection for AC ... is that normal? (I don't know much about 66s with AC)

If it was OEM added later they did a bang up job in the engine compartment, I'd never guess it wasn't original.

Has enough pics in the link that any 66 expert should be able to tell pretty quick.
It has the larger factory A/C control panel in the dash (you just move the slider to "cooler" and the A/C turns on), as well as the outer ball vents in the dash which are not used in non-A/C cars. I have a '66 with A/C and I don't see anything that suggests this car didn't leave the factory with A/C installed. Everything looks exactly as my car did before I took it apart for restoration.

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Old 08-29-2022, 11:35 PM
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Five Group codes. Data plate is missing a K in the 2nd group. Fisher Body needed to know exactly how many holes were needed and where to put them. A small hole in the quarter panel (Power Antenna) was important enough to go on a tag. They'd even write notes about colors and vinyl. AC was a major deviation.

PHS papers might not show AC thanks to an error in the office, but on the floor those tags (and build sheets) served a purpose. I doubt any of the folks at Fisher wanted to be the one who fouled up the assembly line. One department makes a not so critical mistake, entirely possible. But two departments, and this one is a significant error?? Strains all plausibility.

I highly doubt this was a skunkworks project. Add me to the I-suspect-it's-a-rebody crowd.

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Old 08-30-2022, 02:22 PM
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Five Group codes. Data plate is missing a K in the 2nd group. Fisher Body needed to know exactly how many holes were needed and where to put them. .............
Attached is my dataplate below. My car has factory A/C (and it was done at the factory), but I don't see a "K" anywhere on there. Maybe different Fisher Body plants had their own methods of A/C ID?
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Old 08-30-2022, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 242177P View Post
Five Group codes. Data plate is missing a K in the 2nd group. Fisher Body needed to know exactly how many holes were needed and where to put them. A small hole in the quarter panel (Power Antenna) was important enough to go on a tag. They'd even write notes about colors and vinyl. AC was a major deviation.

PHS papers might not show AC thanks to an error in the office, but on the floor those tags (and build sheets) served a purpose. I doubt any of the folks at Fisher wanted to be the one who fouled up the assembly line. One department makes a not so critical mistake, entirely possible. But two departments, and this one is a significant error?? Strains all plausibility.

I highly doubt this was a skunkworks project. Add me to the I-suspect-it's-a-rebody crowd.

Grain of salt needed, but I have come across material online regarding data plate decoding which states that A/C could be denoted by either a "K" or an "E" depending on something relating to ducting. Not sure if there is any truth to that, but if so, this car does have an "E" in the accessory group.

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Old 08-30-2022, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hgerhardt View Post
Attached is my dataplate below. My car has factory A/C (and it was done at the factory), but I don't see a "K" anywhere on there. Maybe different Fisher Body plants had their own methods of A/C ID?
Correct. Baltimore didn't stamp (or use?) the five group code, Pontiac and Fremont did.

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Originally Posted by ZeGermanHam View Post
Grain of salt needed, but I have come across material online regarding data plate decoding which states that A/C could be denoted by either a "K" or an "E" depending on something relating to ducting. Not sure if there is any truth to that, but if so, this car does have an "E" in the accessory group.
E is in the 1st group (Soft Ray Glass)
2nd group has an L (4 speed)
and an R (rear speaker)
5th has a Y (deluxe seat belts)

PHS managed to get all of those right.
And check out the engine stamping...

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