[jakeshoe]

Your average 454 Chevy after 1975 came with peanut port heads which are probably a smaller runner than a Pontiac...
Most guys at the 500 HP level and less are running the oval ports which are not massive and make a good all around power curve.

Ford FE motors don't have massive ports, etc..

Pontiac motors are generally torquey setups BUT, cube for cube they aren't that much different than any other American pushrod V8.

It's even been proven that a longer stroke doesn't necessaarily create more torque than a larger bore/shorter stroke combo for the same cid...

Anybody that has dyno sheets should break them out and look at comparable builds in other engines, you'll see a trend, a 455 Poncho with a ~230 ish cam, common headers, aftermarket intake, etc, will be pretty close on the dyno sheet to a 454 Chevy, 460 Ford, 455 Buick, etc with similar equipment.
I'm not knocking Poncho motors because I've built a few and they are to me one of the classic icons of American power but you have to "leave the bubble" sometimes.

[440GP69]

Agree'd, Also The Myth where a Bigger Bore gives you better top end is BS too or a long stroke is for low rpm Torque engines BS, You know what Builds Torque? Cubic Inches!!!, It doesn't matter whether its stroke or Bore size They Both add Power an Torque at a lower rpm. With adding Bore Size getting the Nod as Best Means to Large CID Because Of unshrouding te Heads for Even More Potential power, JMHO

[jakeshoe]

Today's project










Transbrake install and deep pan.

Hope the POS makes it out of the shop with that junky 200-4R...

11 second ~500 RWHP GN with a 200-4R, STOCK servo and pan (possibly stock internals) couple of years on it at least, raced frequently.

[440GP69]

Cool Pan! Who Makes it?

[harry k]

like i said earlier :OEM equiped 2004R cars better success that retrofits
Jake
is that a BRF unit ? looks like PTS pan but no name custom from someonelse .
i asume if you kept stock internals (not removing the unit out of the car for this job now) , you didnt use the PTS "BAT BRAKE" ,did you use the one that controls the detent lever type from inside pan ?

[TTS]

Originally Posted by jakeshoe

And next,
explain to me how a Pontiac has more torque cube for cube than any other similar combo.
Post up the dyno sheets.

The Pontiac crowd likes to drive -600 HP 3800+lb. cars with tall gears and a near stock converters. They beat on their transmissions from both ends, i.e. 200-4R's don't work well in tow trucks.

[RR67GTO]

440GP, and the real importent thing is ya ned sumptens to put it in. By the way, I believe we have a mutual buddy who has one of the AC half a million doller 200's am I correct? I was thinking bout buy it but now after all this info I am Hmmmmm ?? maybe better to stay with old school I have for now. Bet he reads this.

Me

[Overkillphil]

harry k,

Good posts! Exactly what I have experienced.

All of the retrofits we have done were copied exactly from our Buick GN's regarding TV geometry. I have long ignored the various magical and snake oil methods of setting up the TV cables and stuck with what the Hydramatic engineers have worked hard to develop.

We have been running these transmissions in retrofit projects since the late 80's and they have been incredibly reliable. None of them however, are full time track cars but rather street cars with street tires or drag radials that see occasional strip action with street slicks.

Bang for the buck, it offers alot of desirable features for it's size.

But as much as I like the 200-4R, I still cannot understand someone that builds a 600+ hp engine and then decides they want a 200-4R behind it. I would expect this type of decision to be counterintuitive after investing so much in a high dollar/high horsepower engine that undoubtedly will see heavy strip action.

[Thomasmoto]

Yeah, Art Carr himself told me his 2004r would live behind my 86 turbo Buick that ran mid-10's and it lasted 14 days past warranty and they would give me NO HELP!. I thru it away and put in a 350t that is till in the car today 10 years later.
David

[Half-Inch Stud]

I completely agree with this thread.

To me, it's the wheel-hop tendency that says "SEE YA!"

where the TH400 (with worn-out welcome) yet stays for yet another hard run.
Lack of Overdrive gear is why our toughest AUTO remains the cheapest.

[67 Lamnas]

I have a TH-400 with a GV....no TV cable, no weak trans parts, just a lighter wallet, but not as light as a 4L60E or 4L80E...........

no lying awake at nite....

Might upgrade it though to a bit stronger input shaft/direct drum/sprag combo before the 535 goes in......

[Half-Inch Stud]

GV TH400 tail kit is the attractive "baseline". Unless a fella has a "Hone-O-Dyne" laying around.

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by TTS

The Pontiac crowd likes to drive -600 HP 3800+lb. cars with tall gears and a near stock converters. They beat on their transmissions from both ends, i.e. 200-4R's don't work well in tow trucks.

You've described most of the stock applications for the 200-4R. Big boats with a slug of a V8, 2.73 or 3.08 gears and a low stall stock converter. Obviously not making 500-600 HP on the front end but many of the stock applications were heavy. I believe the heavyish cars and highway gear ratios are why GM used the 2.74 ratio.

Actually there are some 200-4R's being used in tow truck applications successfully

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by 67 Lamnas

I have a TH-400 with a GV....no TV cable, no weak trans parts, just a lighter wallet, but not as light as a 4L60E or 4L80E...........

no lying awake at nite....

Might upgrade it though to a bit stronger input shaft/direct drum/sprag combo before the 535 goes in......

The TH400 and GV weighs pretty much exactly the same as a 4L80E. No TV cable on a 4L80E.
No lying awake at night either. I just sold a 4L80E for a 1200 HP Chevelle. It will get all the improved internals, transbrake, etc. but I don't forsee any issues.

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by 440GP69

Cool Pan! Who Makes it?

It is the PTS pan and sump pickup. Pretty decent piece although I personally don't deal with Bruce.

Stageright brake.

[67 Lamnas]

Originally Posted by jakeshoe

The TH400 and GV weighs pretty much exactly the same as a 4L80E. No TV cable on a 4L80E.
No lying awake at night either. I just sold a 4L80E for a 1200 HP Chevelle. It will get all the improved internals, transbrake, etc. but I don't forsee any issues.

Jake,

I don't know a lot about the 4L80E, but is it pretty much standard procedure to correct the boost valve/line pressure issues during the course of a rebuild? Or is it just done on an as-needed basis?

I won't apologize for hi-jacking the thread and then hi-jack it....I just prefer to hi-jack

[jakeshoe]

I'm assuming you are speaking of the worn boost valve, huge line pressure issue?

I typically install a new boost valve and a pressure relief on the VB torque signal circuit (TransGo stuff) to correct this issue.

Some of the problems were also caused on the very early units because the torque signal circuit had no orificed regulation, so you got some pressure spikes that later units won't get.

I also replace the actuator feed limit valve in all the valve bodies that I do, normal wear area.

[TTS]

Originally Posted by jakeshoe

Some of the problems were also caused on the very early units because the torque signal circuit had no orificed regulation, so you got some pressure spikes that later units won't get.

Do you mean like the school buses MANUALLY shifting to Reverse @ speed?

Replace the boost valve in any 4L80, I've seen broken drums, cases, and pistons.

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by TTS

Do you mean like the school buses MANUALLY shifting to Reverse @ speed?

The reverse shift problems were caused by the filter at the back of the manual valve getting old and breaking up and pressure coming in from the rear of the manual valve forcing it forward to reverse. Scary stuff....

I'm sure you're aware of it but the TransGo Sk and other kits put a metal plug ahead of the filter so this is never an issue.

[Cliff R]

Just a note on Pontiac engine power production and transmissions.

Pontiac engines, specifically the longer stroke versions, use relatively "heavy" internals, and conservative flowing cylinder heads. They are known for making strong low end and mid-range power. A 455 when compared side by side with a 454 Chevy or 460 Ford engine has a longer stroke to acheive the same cid. Since we are already handicapped with an undersquare design, and mediocre flowing heads, we tend to use lower numerically gearing and tighter converter stall characteristics.

This combination, (tighter converters/lower gearing) will put a lot higher stress on all of the components in the drivetrain, specifically on the launch (with good traction). The initial "shock" to the drivetrain quickly finds any weak points. The most important item to note here is "shock" to the drivetrain. The converters we use are nearly 100 percent locked up above the stall speed, and flash high enough in the rpm range that we are at or very close to the engines peak torque production. This is a death sentence for any weak part behind the engine, or potential failure point.

Case in point, when I first installed our 455 engine about 8 years ago, we went to the track to see how well it would improve the vehicle performance. On the first outing I twisted a driveshaft.

Next outing blew up the spider gears in a factory 8.5 posi carrier up on the first run.

Next outing blew up the replacment 8.5 posi carrier on the first run (it had a hole in it big as your fist, and took out the ring/pinion).

Next outing took out the TH400 (it had been nearly 20 years since it was rebuilt).

After a half dozen attempts to get numbers on the car, we had upgraded just about every part behind the engine.

If one is going to put one of these engines into service, and "hit" the transmisson with over 500ft lbs torque (our engine makes about 600ft lbs) with good traction, using a little tiny transmission with several potential "weak" spots is not the best choice. As far as the 200's are concerned, the aftermarket has stepped up in recent years with a host of billet parts. Still doesn't give me a "warm and fuzzy" using one for drag racing at our power level, so we stick with the TH400 instead.

The rest of my opinions/observations about them have been well covered in previous responses.......Cliff