[Vid]

Originally Posted by ta man

Mine makes close to 600hp and drives smooth, you don't know the power is there until you step on it.
A larger cu inch engine could achieve the goal.

These big horsepower ideas and theories are all fascinating but nobody’s addressing the elephant in the room. WHO THE HECK IS HIS MOTHER IN LAW AND IS SHE SINGLE?!?!


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[JLMounce]

It would be easier if his fuel choice could change t0 E85 where he could run a realistic 13-14:1 compression depending on cam selection. I think to remain "street friendly" you're going to have to do some tricks here and there to free up horsepower instead of creating it. You can forget about using a mechanical fan, probably want to run an electric water pump as well. Does the car need AC?

I'm not an engine builder, but if I was trying this, I'd probably look at something like a +0.060 over 455 with a 4.5" stroke. Probably topped with a set of DCI RAV's or KRE High Ports in the 380-400cfm range, whatever can keep port velocity as high as possible while providing the air needed. I think you have to run EFI or at least really know your way around a quality carb as well as running some sort of electronically controlled ignition system.

[Steve C.]

Let's make sure the mother in law isn't rewarded with an engine that sounds like a "pro-stocker", has a very "rough" idle and MOST IMPORTANNT doesn't have tons of STINKY exhaust out the back!

Originally Posted by ta man:
Mine makes close to 600hp and drives smooth, you don't know the power is there until you step on it.
A larger cu inch engine could achieve the goal.

I agree with this.

600 HP from a 460 would be a slam dunk and very streetable. Been there done that.
And my 505 in one configuration made 660 HP with about '320 cfm' heads and 10:1 compression, and at a very manageable 5900/6000 rpm.


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[25stevem]

Total waste of time responding to a guys post like that!
Unless the guy has raced before and made enough power to even get into the low 11s then he has no idea what even 550 hp feels like , no less 690, and why he would need such on the street other then bragging rights!
When you ask people like this ( no racing experience) if they know what it takes to maintain a NA 690 Hp 460 cid motor they just mumble at first and say no,

Then you know for sure you have wasted you own energy thinking and moving your mouth!

[Tom Vaught]

I could give you 3 examples of engines smaller than 300 cid, with a basic centrifugal supercharger, that made over 700 RWHP on a accurate RW dyno and were street driven daily.

I tend to try to do things that are EASY vs stick with stuff that requires years of tuning and actually does not perform like a TRUE Street Car on a daily basis.

Now these engines did have very good heads on them and did shift at 8000 rpm (day after day after day) with a 6 speed manual trans. Several used to make a trip 25 years ago from Michigan to Bradenton Drag Way (driven there with the SC belt removed to extend the life of the SC, and then driven home the same way.

460 - 280 = 180 so 180 less cubic inches makes 100 + hp more than the 600 HP engine and can be driven 1000+ miles one way.
And 1000 miles back home.

(A Canadian Guy RICHARD GUIDO, who runs a Pontiac engine in Drag Week each year) is a perfect example.
And you just want a mild "Street Engine"???????

Tom V.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 25stevem

Total waste of time responding to a guys post like that!
Unless the guy has raced before and made enough power to even get into the low 11s then he has no idea what even 550 hp feels like , no less 690, and why he would need such on the street other then bragging rights!
When you ask people like this ( no racing experience) if they know what it takes to maintain a NA 690 Hp 460 cid motor they just mumble at first and say no,

Then you know for sure you have wasted you own energy thinking and moving your mouth!

Kind of an odd post Steve25 (but wouldn't hurt to keep that mindset for future posts)

Fwiw the guy that inspired this post had a nine flat street driven Pontiac pump gas car that made around 900 HP.

I gave him a ride in my nine second pump gas Firebird the other day and he was amazed at how the car had zero tire spin on the street. That engine only makes about 850 horsepower and will run into the eights with nitrous.

I don't think 690 horsepower will be hard to handle but definetly won't work good with a stock suspension and BF Goodies.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by 25stevem

Total waste of time responding to a guys post like that!
Unless the guy has raced before and made enough power to even get into the low 11s then he has no idea what even 550 hp feels like , no less 690, and why he would need such on the street other then bragging rights!
When you ask people like this ( no racing experience) if they know what it takes to maintain a NA 690 Hp 460 cid motor they just mumble at first and say no,

Then you know for sure you have wasted you own energy thinking and moving your mouth!

It's kind of a cool thought experiment though. Even if it's completely impractical.

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I could give you 3 examples of engines smaller than 300 cid, with a basic centrifugal supercharger, that made over 700 RWHP on a accurate RW dyno and were street driven daily.

I tend to try to do things that are EASY vs stick with stuff that requires years of tuning and actually does not perform like a TRUE Street Car on a daily basis.

Now these engines did have very good heads on them and did shift at 8000 rpm (day after day after day) with a 6 speed manual trans. Several used to make a trip 25 years ago from Michigan to Bradenton Drag Way (driven there with the SC belt removed to extend the life of the SC, and then driven home the same way.

460 - 280 = 180 so 180 less cubic inches makes 100 + hp more than the 600 HP engine and can be driven 1000+ miles one way.
And 1000 miles back home.

(A Canadian Guy RICHARD GUIDO, who runs a Pontiac engine in Drag Week each year) is a perfect example.
And you just want a mild "Street Engine"???????

Tom V.

I do agree this is a much better route. A V3Si would probably do the trick without making the noise.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by ponchonlefty

what heads you running?what compression?

A really nice set of alum d-port, 10.5:1

[Steve C.]

In response to 25stevem. Bragging rights......

10.602 at 127 mph, naturally aspirated. This was at Norwalk, Ohio on a hot and humid summer day. At the time I had a race weight of 3,675 lbs , factory 400 block, 11.2:1 compression with aluminum heads and 680 HP.
The car was registered, inspected and occasionally driven on the street.

From a 2002 magazine article...

There is nothing quite like a testimonial to support your claim and one that attests to the streetable nature of Coombes '70 T/A was made by Matt Dalton after he got the chance to drive it at Norwalk. "It was a fabulous weekend. I was extremely impressed with the complete and utter driveability of Steve Coombes '70 T/A. I have never seen a more manageable 680 hp. This thing idled like a baby, never got over 180*, and delivered 10.60 passes on demand. I was ready to drive it to the motel room."


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[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

In response to 25stevem. Bragging rights......

10.602 at 127 mph, naturally aspirated. This was at Norwalk, Ohio on a hot and humid summer day. At the time I had a race weight of 3,675 lbs , factory 400 block, 11.2:1 compression with aluminum heads and 680 HP.
The car was registered, inspected and occasionally driven on the street.

From a 2002 magazine article...

"There is nothing quite like a testimonial to support your claim and one that attests to the streetable nature of Coombes '70 T/A was made by Matt Dalton after he got the chance to drive it at Norwalk. "It was a fabulous weekend. I was extremely impressed with the complete and utter driveability of Steve Coombes '70 T/A. I have never seen a more manageable 680 hp. This thing idled like a baby, never got over 180*, and delivered 10.60 passes on demand. I was ready to drive it to the motel room."


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Great job Steve.... And we have some twenty years of technology to add to the current build.

[AG]

My old 461 in my race car went 10.12 in the 1/4 at 3550#, horsepower calculator says 677 Hp. Ran on 93 with 11.2 static CR and the converter is streetable to me. 335 CNC ported Kauffman Eddy RPs with victor/dominator. The cam is a SR with 262/266 at 0.050" duration and 0.630"/0.640" lift after lash. It would be raspy on the street, but it would not be a coast to coast car. Everyone has a different definition of what a street car is.

[ponchonlefty]

Originally Posted by slowbird

A really nice set of alum d-port, 10.5:1

cool set up. thanks for the reply. i have a set of edel. d ports 72 cc chamber gonna put on a 406.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by AG

My old 461 in my race car went 10.12 in the 1/4 at 3550#, horsepower calculator says 677 Hp. Ran on 93 with 11.2 static CR and the converter is streetable to me. 335 CNC ported Kauffman Eddy RPs with victor/dominator. The cam is a SR with 262/266 at 0.050" duration and 0.630"/0.640" lift after lash. It would be raspy on the street, but it would not be a coast to coast car. Everyone has a different definition of what a street car is.

Crux of the issue right there. I can tolerate quite a bit in my street car as far as manners are concerned, but for me the definition comes down to maintenance and ease of use.

A street car for me would be the ability to run on readily available pump fuels, no need to constantly adjust valves, put fuel and oil in it as needed, can be driven in stop and go traffic and on the highway without overheating.

Radical idles can be dealt with from a brakes standpoint with either manual brakes or hydraboost.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Crux of the issue right there. I can tolerate quite a bit in my street car as far as manners are concerned, but for me the definition comes down to maintenance and ease of use.

A street car for me would be the ability to run on readily available pump fuels, no need to constantly adjust valves, put fuel and oil in it as needed, can be driven in stop and go traffic and on the highway without overheating.

Radical idles can be dealt with from a brakes standpoint with either manual brakes or hydraboost.

All true points.

The Detroit Street Racers, Danny Scott, etc used to say they had "Street Cars" which is one reason why the NMCA guys had the Super Street Guys
many years ago drive a 30 mile circuit, prior to racing.

So a "trip around the block" is not an example of a TRUE STREET driven "street machine".

At least Chief had video of his car being driven on the road in Oklahome but not the same as Mr Guidos 65 GTO. 1000 miles plus before racing.

JMO

Tom V.

[Formulajones]

Are you really stuck with 460 cubes?

If staying N/A and pump gas, many successful 600hp builds that are very street friendly. Trying to reach 700hp N/A with 460 cubes is really starting to stretch
all the terms used in your question (street car, pump gas, 460ci, no power adder etc....)
Maybe it could be done but it would take a killer set of heads, and pump gas might be touchy, camshaft might be a bit on the radical side, and if a solid roller is used I start to question "street car" as they do seem to have a somewhat questionable life expectancy if you really rack the miles up on them. But we do several thousand miles a year, not several hundred.

That's the big reason why dad went with more cubes and got away from the stock block stuff. Get up around 500 cubes, 505, 535, and 700hp is much more doable with less head, less compression and less camshaft. Making the engine easily streetable.

Dad went 571 only because he figured the crank didn't really cost much more and it was a drop in with the MR1 block. It runs all day on 91 octane, idles in traffic as long as you want and temps never get over 180 degrees. He does 300 mile weekend trips in it and is knocking down almost 16 mpg highway. It's the "real" definition of a street car, and he made 724hp and 764 torque, which is very tame for the size of the engine.

Do all that with 460 cube Pontiac?? I don't know but if you build it Paul I would love to hear about it

[grivera]

This has been a great read - but I can't get over the "690" horsepower. How does one arrive at that figure - as in why not add the extra 10 and make it 700?

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Are you really stuck with 460 cubes?

If staying N/A and pump gas, many successful 600hp builds that are very street friendly. Trying to reach 700hp N/A with 460 cubes is really starting to stretch
all the terms used in your question (street car, pump gas, 460ci, no power adder etc....)
Maybe it could be done but it would take a killer set of heads, and pump gas might be touchy, camshaft might be a bit on the radical side, and if a solid roller is used I start to question "street car" as they do seem to have a somewhat questionable life expectancy if you really rack the miles up on them. But we do several thousand miles a year, not several hundred.

That's the big reason why dad went with more cubes and got away from the stock block stuff. Get up around 500 cubes, 505, 535, and 700hp is much more doable with less head, less compression and less camshaft. Making the engine easily streetable.

Dad went 571 only because he figured the crank didn't really cost much more and it was a drop in with the MR1 block. It runs all day on 91 octane, idles in traffic as long as you want and temps never get over 180 degrees. He does 300 mile weekend trips in it and is knocking down almost 16 mpg highway. It's the "real" definition of a street car, and he made 724hp and 764 torque, which is very tame for the size of the engine.

Do all that with 460 cube Pontiac?? I don't know but if you build it Paul I would love to hear about it

Been waiting for this post. Its been proven with big cubes.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by grivera

This has been a great read - but I can't get over the "690" horsepower. How does one arrive at that figure - as in why not add the extra 10 and make it 700?

my guess is 1.5 HP per CID.

[slowbird]

Just to show the difference in people that hang out here vs on FB (where this question was originally asked), the majority on FB make it sound like it's a cake walk and everyone is or has done. Not the case here, it appears to me PY definitely is the smarter group.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Just to show the difference in people that hang out here vs on FB (where this question was originally asked), the majority on FB make it sound like it's a cake walk and everyone is or has done. Not the case here, it appears to me PY definitely is the smarter group.

Everyone has an uncle or a co-worker that knows a guy who builds Pontiacs...

That's typically what I see on FP, but to be fair there's also some good information out there if you know how to parse through it.

I certainly don't think this deal is impossible. It'll be expensive though, I do know that.