[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Chris65LeMans

Strange - I've got a '99 4 cyl Camry that I'm lucky to get 22 mpg out of. that's lower than my V6 Acura that has about 140 more HP. All short trips with that car, though. 190,000 miles now - I've had it for about 5 years (it was passed to me through the family), and I've only changed oil and filters in it. That's it.

Funny thing about Camry's. (I Own a 2010 SE). I used to work for a public auto auction. The cars they sold were junk. If it could run through the auction under its own power, it was a sale-able car. These were cars that seriously were at the end of their life.

We used to get Camry's in all the time with 300,000 miles or more all the time and they still ran through the auction. They were the only cars that would come in "sale-able" with those miles.

[John V.]

After driving a Safari van for 11 years, my wife got tired of 16 mpg and problem after problem that kept me busy with one repair after another. Plus, kids were grown so she was more than ready to downsize.

So we bought a new '08 Civic EX 4 dr. sedan. She absolutely loved it. In 2012, we needed a car for my son, so he got the '08. She got a '12 Civic EX-L. There was limited selection at the time (tsunami) and she debated it vs. the Elantra. Nothing wrong with it really, she just never fell in love with it, especially the color which I talked her into. She still likes the '08 better.

My son has the '08 in Boston. My wife cringes to think how "her" car is taking a beating up north. It didn't help when somebody punctured the front bumper with a hitch or whatever while he was parked on the street. No note, no sorry about that. Just a hit and run.

I would encourage you to try and boost your budget.

I've never had a Toyota so I would cast a vote for the 8th gen Civic ('06 thru '11 I believe).

Keep in mind, if you bought an '08 Civic for $8000 this year (what I valued mine at on my financial statement last summer) from an original owner private seller, next year it would still be worth about $7200. If you buy from a Dealer, it'll cost you more. When buying used cars, I have always tried to cut out the middleman, and buy direct from the owner to save money.

A $4000 car is not an easy sell, so it is a tempting purchase. But it not an easy sell because it will be typically nearly 15 years old, most people don't need the aggravation. All sorts of things will start to break if they haven't already. How happy will your wife be when it stops making heat. Or it dies on the side of the road with a failed fuel pump? That is the norm for old cars and why they sell cheap.

Sure they can be fixed. But there is something to be said for reliability.

Before you buy used, take a look at new too. Consider the cost of tires, maybe a battery, and realize that you can use that money to help pay for new. And the warranty means no surprise expenses.

When I bought my first new car in '80, the fuel economy savings vs. my old car helped offset about 25% of the payments, helped make it affordable.

And always remember, your payments aren't pure cost. Much of it is your equity. Your real cost is depreciation. If you can swing the payments, there is a lot to like with new.

The '08 hasn't had any real hiccups but it is now over 5 years old. It is just a matter of time before it will need some expensive repairs, maybe brakes too. It has been nice to avoid repairs to this point. Had battery post corrosion issues, caused a no start from time to time. When I replaced the battery, installed felt washers and seemed to cure that problem.

You might find the proverbial creampuff in a $4000 used car. But most $4000 used cars will be nightmares as Old Blue points out. Those cars go on the Si Habla used car lots. Sold to people who can't get credit anywhere else for prices way higher than their value. And the poor get poorer.

I don't know about high cost of parts, only thing I've had to buy from Honda are wiper refills for both Civics and they are very reasonable.

BTW, not sure since when, but the Civic no longer uses a timing belt, even in '08 that was not a service issue.

The '08 gets 35 mpg at a steady 78 mph on the highway, always more than 30 mpg around suburbia. The '12 gets a tick better on the highway. It'll do better than 40 mpg but I can't drive that slow on the highway.

I drive a '04 GP GTP, 3.8 SC since new. It gets 24 mpg on the highway. 100K on the odo. I'm a Pontiac guy but I would not recommend my car to somebody looking for a reliable, economical used car.

Last thought, I HATE the headrests on the Civic. But the fuel economy makes me forget how much I detest them.

[tdavidl]

i'm in the same boat, not for the wife, for the 16 yr old...not one comment on this thread about the safety issues of the cars....as I'm doing my searches & readings i'm more concerned about safety issues than gas mileage...its gotta have all the airbags, abs brakes, traction control, whatever....

so any feedback on what used car to look for no older than 2008, no more than 75,000 miles in the $15k range +- a couple grand ?

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by tdavidl

i'm in the same boat, not for the wife, for the 16 yr old...not one comment on this thread about the safety issues of the cars....as I'm doing my searches & readings i'm more concerned about safety issues than gas mileage...its gotta have all the airbags, abs brakes, traction control, whatever....

so any feedback on what used car to look for no older than 2008, no more than 75,000 miles in the $15k range +- a couple grand ?

My wifes Altima V6 is simply great in the snow. Far better than my 2009 Camry V6. Both have TC too. Hers is a 2012 but that body style was around for a long time and can easily be had for $15,000. So many of them are soild with 4cyl's so that makes the V6 models sell at a premium price. We traded in a 2005 with a v6 and was surprised at the difference in value. If you do go the Altima route, stick with the previous gen cars. 2001 - 2005 had issues with rust in the floor boards. Ask me how I know.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by tdavidl

i'm in the same boat, not for the wife, for the 16 yr old...not one comment on this thread about the safety issues of the cars....as I'm doing my searches & readings i'm more concerned about safety issues than gas mileage...its gotta have all the airbags, abs brakes, traction control, whatever....

so any feedback on what used car to look for no older than 2008, no more than 75,000 miles in the $15k range +- a couple grand ?

Raised 4 boys, all in their 20s now.

Best safety feature, bar none, a parent in the front passenger seat. From experience, I knew they would be better drivers with me in the car than with their best buddies in the car.

2nd best safety feature is a reliable car. You don't want them broken down on the side of the Interstate. Good tires is also a must.

None of my kids was allowed to get their license "on time".

Once they got their license, they were forbidden from having friends in the car with them, no exceptions, for at least about 6 months. They were also forbidden from accepting rides from new drivers. It meant we carted them around to places when most kids were allowed to be passengers many months sooner. But that was our rule.

None of my kids owned their own car, they had to ask permission to borrow the car I made available to them.

My oldest rolled the '98 Sunfire convertible a day after he graduated HS, at slow speed. Luckily he and the friend with him walked away unscratched. The car and its air bags and ABS was totaled. The airbags probably helped.

Another son did a 360 at about 50 mph in the '03 Jeep Wrangler on the main road leading to our neighborhood. Not entirely his fault except that he was inexperienced. Luckily hit nothing and remained upright. When I saw him 10 mins later, pretty sure he was very shaken. My youngest was in the Jeep with him.

Youngest's biggest excitement as a young driver was blowing up the engine in the '97 Safari on the Interstate. He is probably my most conservative driver. He now drives the Jeep around Lincoln, NE, you can catch him on air, he does TV weather there.

Oldest got multiple speeding tix before he turned 20 plus the wrecked Sunfire under his belt. He wrecked the old Taurus I had given him after college because of tailgating. 3rd rear ended a guy at slow speed. Minor damage to the Sunfire, but expensive repair to the car he hit. Both the Taurus and Sunfire had ABS. Air bags did not deploy in either of these rear enders. Just bad judgment on the part of young drivers following too close and being impatient.

They all managed to have their share of issues.

My cars weren't even safe in my driveway. Oldest failed to set the parking brake securely on the '99 Sunfire convert (replaced the totaled one). It rolled down the driveway and narrowly missed smashing into the neighbor's mailbox. A neighbor rang my doorbell in the middle of the night to say my car was sticking out in the road, an accident waiting to happen.

Most cars have ABS and air bags (the Jeep lacks ABS, but it was an option). I didn't worry about those features too much except to get a break on insurance.

Just tried to control the opportunities for disaster. I don't understand parents that allow their kids out into the morning hours. That's like Russian Roulette. My kids hated the restrictions and I'm sure didn't always follow them.

Be prepared for sleepless nights. When you're laying in bed and you know they should be home any minute and you hear sirens blaring from somewhere, it is tough to sleep.

IMO, any 2008 up car will work. The trick is to control the young driver until he/she gains the experience. That takes, oh, maybe 20 years. Good luck with yours.

[justincampbell]

I understand that there are better buys out there for more money. But unless I have some money just fall from the sky, the $4000 is pretty much all I will have to spend for this.

I also understand that a 10-15 year old car will not be without some trouble from time to time. But if I can find something that will be as good as her current car(2000 Hyundai Elantra) has been up to this point, I will be pretty happy. The thing got great mileage(avg 31-32) and had not previously had any difficult or expensive repairs. All I have done to it in the 85k since we have owned it is: plugs and plug wires($30), a little part related to fuel system(I can't even remember what it was exactly now, $26), brake pads($13), RH drive axle assembly($48), RH wheel bearing($16). While not trouble free, I'd say that is still pretty low maintenance for the miles I got out of it. FYI, I suspect the drive axle and bearing may have come to their end earlier than they should have due to the accident it had been in when I got it(it had been hit in the right front corner hard enough to total it).

[John V.]

I feel your pain. And believe me, my wife and I have driven many "lousy" cars when we were younger, cause the one I owned was always cheaper than anything I could afford to buy. Like you, I could always fix 'em myself for cheap.

Just trying to caution you, if you spend $4000 on an apparent creampuff and the trans in it blows up 6 months from now, then what?

Do you qualify for financing on a new car?

That $4000 might get you thru about the 1st year of payments.

How long did you own the Hyundai and what did you pay for it? How many miles on it when you bought it? Is it worth anything now?

If you paid $4000 for it 5 years ago, just to be comparable, you'd need to look at an '05 and probably pay a lot more for it based on inflation. And then you'd have to be just as lucky as with the Hyundai because it seems like it did well by you until the trans crapped out. No guarantee your '05 bargain will be as problem free as the '00 has been.

My '08 Civic cost about $20K. Today it is worth about $8K.

So it has only cost me about $2K per year in depreciation. Set of tires, a battery, about 8-9 oil changes (once every 8000 miles per the on board oil minder), a few air filters, a couple cabin filters, a few wiper refills, washer fluid, and a lot of car wash soap and water. Also a couple tail lamp bulbs IIRC.

I'm sure that's more than you have in the Hyundai over what may be a similar time span.

But the Honda doesn't need replacement yet. So the difference is a lot smaller than what you might think.

Another choice is to look at certified preowned. You can find very low mile 2012 Civics for about $16K and finance thru Honda if you qualify. Plug in your zip code and see what is available near you. I don't typically recommend buying used thru a dealer but financing can be an advantage, plus a powertrain warranty.

http://automobiles.honda.com/certified-used/

You can do this with any make, only picking the Civic cause that is what I know.

The LX model is the stripped version, the EX adds moonroof, alloy wheels. IIRC, the EX also adds 4 wheel disc brakes, the LX might have rear drums. We got the '12 EX-L with leather, heated seats, and heated mirrors but would have been happy with the EX as we were in '08, in fact my wife really hates the leather seats.

[mrrat1]

I would grab Kirbans GP for sale!

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Cerberus

Friends don't let friends drive Fords.

I don't agree with that; I've had several older F250 & F350s that gave great service even being worked mercilessly that other makes would not hold up to.

Ford Contours are great cars if you want to keep your mechanic busy, and the 3.8 Ford V6 is the headgasketest blowing POS engine around,.

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

Funny thing about Camry's. (I Own a 2010 SE). I used to work for a public auto auction. The cars they sold were junk. If it could run through the auction under its own power, it was a sale-able car. These were cars that seriously were at the end of their life.

We used to get Camry's in all the time with 300,000 miles or more all the time and they still ran through the auction. They were the only cars that would come in "sale-able" with those miles.

IMO seems most 4 banger imported cars are not sold or traded until they're on their death beds.

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

If you want a GM/Toyota made in the US (Calif.) car the Vibe would be tough to beat, bought one for my wife new in 2008 and it now has around 165,000 on it now. Tires brakes and a tune up with regular oil changes is all I've done to it so far. We even pulled an enclosed 6X10 trailer with it 1600 miles with it when almost new, and have used it to pull that trailer and even haul tow dollies with cars on them since then. They hold their value well and used ones bring decent money. A toyota Matrix is not the exact same car and many parts don't interchange between the 2 cars. Many do, but not all parts interchange.

O.

x 2 on the Vibe; engineer at work has one he commutes in. 200K + and he has nothing but praise for the car. Pretty decent car and the fuel economy is supposed to be pretty good too -

[justincampbell]

John V.
Financing would not be a problem. The problem is that the only "extra" money that we may have coming in is whatever we have for a tax refund each year. Bearing in mind that money also has to cover any unexpected expenses related to our home. So money is tight to say the least. Honestly, if gas wasn't so expensive I would just resurrect my old Ford pickup('76 F100 4x4). It wasn't much to look at(or listen to), but it was always really dependable.

I bought the Hyundai in early '07 with just barely over 30k on it. I've got a total of $3400-$3500 in it including the aforementioned repairs. I figure I could still get a car together for that if I wasn't under the gun. Then I could buy and repair a wreck again.

The only way I would ever buy a car from a dealer is if I could afford a new car.

[justincampbell]

455Grandville
I must've been super lucky then. I had an '87 Tbird with a 3.8 in high school. That car had 186k+ when I wrecked it and the only engine trouble it ever had was an ignition module?. Trust me, I tested the durability of that car nearly every time I was behind the wheel. Kind of makes one wonder how we survived being teenagers.

[66sprint6]

Can't say I could recommend any (regular) car other than Toyota. I do have a friend with a Honda, though, and he has some serious mileage on it with no issues. I had an old Corolla as a winter car when I bought my 911. My niece has had it for 2 years now and it has over 180,000 miles on it. Being a car guy, I have always stressed diligent maintenance with factory parts. My Tundra has 130,000 miles on it now. It's bulletproof.

[Sirrotica]

My 93 K3500 dually turbo diesel has 241,000 on it, according to the experts it could never happen. It was made in the US and designed by US engineers and I believe it will make 300,000 without problems.

If and when it does I'll have to drive it to an auction so it can run across the block under it's own power just to prove that US vehicles can indeed make 300,000 miles........................LOL

Really tired of hearing that US cars can't run that far because I've seen it happen. Tons of H and W body GM cars that are deep into the 250,000+ mile mark running around too.

[KS circutguy]

Brad,no trany problems ?
Very rare indeed!

[Sirrotica]

Original transmission, 4L80E, same transmission choice that will be going into my next project car because it has lasted so well. I did change the fluid and filter in it about 2 years ago.

[elefantrider]

Chevy Cruze on a lease. Less than $100/month. Awesome car that gets 40mpg. If you drive a lot, the fuel savings will pay for itself.

[zeebo]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

X2, another very good reliability US car, on Craigslist there are a bunch of them over 200,000 all the time. Mileage on highway is about 30 and in town 22 MPG. I'm currently looking for a SSEi or a GTP GP right now for myself. Found one for $900 asking price that they say needs an engine because it locked up.

Many times on supercharged 3800s the plastic core intake gaskets warp (factory problem) and leak water into the intake ports and cause hydrolock from sitting overnight. The car may only need to drain coolant from the cylinder and replace the intake gaskets to be repaired. New GM gaskets have aluminum core to stop the warpage problem. Even if it does need an engine I found used ones from $450-$800. I'd be happy to have an 01 SSEi for around $1500-$1700 or less if it only needs intake gaskets...............................

actually, the supercharged 3800 cars have aluminum intakes, and do not suffer the coolant leakage issue as the na cars do..i have a 2001 buick park avenue with the 3800sc and it has been bulletproof...bought it at 60k miles and now has 230k on it and still going strong..(but i also take care of it) just had to do a cat conv. replacement as it was rattling and 75% plugged..after the new one, the car runs like it has 2 extra cylinders.. my 2 cents for getting a decent car is buy a car that old people have owned---they are easy on their stuff, and can afford to get them repaired--you dont want to buy a car like a mustang from a 25 yr old kid...if you know what i mean..


lotsa great running gm 3800 cars out there--pay cash for a clean used one and enjoy it for 10 yrs. i see no sense in spending $40,000 on a new ride. tho i would have some $ set aside for repairs...for any used car you choose to buy. the trick is is that you have to be able to afford the upkeep--most people can afford the monthly payment, just like on a house, but they cant afford the upkeep.

[tdavidl]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

My wifes Altima V6 is simply great in the snow. Far better than my 2009 Camry V6. Both have TC too. Hers is a 2012 but that body style was around for a long time and can easily be had for $15,000. So many of them are soild with 4cyl's so that makes the V6 models sell at a premium price. We traded in a 2005 with a v6 and was surprised at the difference in value. If you do go the Altima route, stick with the previous gen cars. 2001 - 2005 had issues with rust in the floor boards. Ask me how I know.

thx for the advice, i drove a 2002 maxima for about 10 yrs & will never buy another nissan again, after about 6 months rattles all over the place...they use plastic fasteners for the body panels & wheel wells & probably many other areas...garbage....manual 6-speed engine was fun to drive though

Originally Posted by John V.

Raised 4 boys, all in their 20s now.

Best safety feature, bar none, a parent in the front passenger seat. From experience, I knew they would be better drivers with me in the car than with their best buddies in the car. no question about it....just not practical to drive with him when he wants to go over a buddies house for a couple hours & doesn't make sense to drive twice as many miles going back & forth to drop him off & pick him up.

2nd best safety feature is a reliable car. You don't want them broken down on the side of the Interstate. Good tires is also a must. agree as well. before i turned my 2007 volvo s60 over to my 18 yr old (he got his license the day after he turned 18) i put 4 new tires on the car & had it serviced.

None of my kids was allowed to get their license "on time". as i said, my oldest was 18 when he got his, more by his choice and my 16 yr old just got his & he turns 17 in may...so not quite "on time"...but not as late as the 18 yr old either...my wife and i are being VERY cautious with how much he'll drive & where...we can tell the difference in driver maturity between our 18 yr old who waited and the 16 yr old...the difference is quite scary really

Once they got their license, they were forbidden from having friends in the car with them, no exceptions, for at least about 6 months. They were also forbidden from accepting rides from new drivers. It meant we carted them around to places when most kids were allowed to be passengers many months sooner. But that was our rule. we have similar rules...in fact the 16 yr old has a buddy over now & they wanted to goto the mall...as silly as it sounds they each took their car...we won't let ours drive any other friends and we won't allow him to ride with anyone who hasn't driven long enough to allow kids to drive....it's a state requirement here in MD

None of my kids owned their own car, they had to ask permission to borrow the car I made available to them. that's what we're doing as well, however, we will have enough cars so they can drive one when needed, the cars will remain in our name & we have the keys....they have to ask for th keys

Most cars have ABS and air bags (the Jeep lacks ABS, but it was an option). I didn't worry about those features too much except to get a break on insurance. correct, MOST do, some don't and some fare better in crash tests as well. some have roof bags as well, some don't. i'm less concerned about gas mileage than i am about safety...if it costs me more in gas to get a safer car so be it....kinda like tires...if the safer tires cost more, so be it. i know this won't make them 100% accident proof or 100% injury-free proof...but anything i can do to increase their odds of reducing injury or worse i will

Be prepared for sleepless nights. When you're laying in bed and you know they should be home any minute and you hear sirens blaring from somewhere, it is tough to sleep. ha, already been there done that...18 yr old was bussing tables at a rest about 10 minutes away....it was rest/bar/concert hall type place so it didn't close on the weekends until 2amish...we made him text before leaving so we knew he was headed home & some nights when they were really busy the texts didn't come until 3amish...tossed & turned until he walked in the door...

IMO, any 2008 up car will work. The trick is to control the young driver until he/she gains the experience. That takes, oh, maybe 20 years. Good luck with yours.

thx...yea, not looking forward to the next 8-10 yrs :-)

[pontiaclady]

Still driving 99 Saturn, has 290k miles. The daily Commute is 50 miles, very few problems over its life. Using oil now, gets good mileage and is reliable. Not a comfortable car, has no power, but the thing won't die. Proper maintenance makes a difference, this is my 3 rd car that got around 300k, all were used and all were US made. Would love a new car, but maintenance and parts are cheap on it so makes sense to keep using saturn till it dies.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by zeebo

actually, the supercharged 3800 cars have aluminum intakes, and do not suffer the coolant leakage issue as the na cars do..i have a 2001 buick park avenue with the 3800sc and it has been bulletproof...bought it at 60k miles and now has 230k on it and still going strong..(but i also take care of it) just had to do a cat conv. replacement as it was rattling and 75% plugged..after the new one, the car runs like it has 2 extra cylinders.. my 2 cents for getting a decent car is buy a car that old people have owned---they are easy on their stuff, and can afford to get them repaired--you dont want to buy a car like a mustang from a 25 yr old kid...if you know what i mean..


lotsa great running gm 3800 cars out there--pay cash for a clean used one and enjoy it for 10 yrs. i see no sense in spending $40,000 on a new ride. tho i would have some $ set aside for repairs...for any used car you choose to buy. the trick is is that you have to be able to afford the upkeep--most people can afford the monthly payment, just like on a house, but they cant afford the upkeep.

I'm aware that the intake is aluminum, that's not what causes the coolant leaks in the later model 3800 II SC. Composite manifolds in naturally aspirated engines are a problem that causes coolant leaks. The Lower Intake gasket core was still some type of composite that deformed and caused leaks usually around 120,000 miles. Depending upon who you listen to to, two things are blamed, Dex Cool and composite core gaskets.

From sources online the composite type gaskets were still being used by GM until 2004. Near as I can tell the updated aluminum core gaskets weren't available from GM until 2005-2006. I'm told that these won't deform and allow coolant into the intake ports or crankcase.