[ponyakr]

OK, here's my thread about what I HOPE will be the story of how I sell my 2009 Kioti CK27 tractor & buy a new compact tractor.

Have just advertised my Kioti on my FB page, to see if anybody local might be interested.

Later tonight, I'll look for other places to post it, where others in the North LA, Northeast TX, South AR, & West MS areas can see it.

So far, after doing a LOT of reading & video watching, the New Holland Workmaster 25 hydro LOOKS to be the best choice for what we need.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk94-GD_wGk&t=8s

My local dealer SUPPOSEDLY has lots of 'em ordered that should be "hitting the ground any day now".

The cash price is $21,400 + tax. That does include a loader. TJ says she'll dip into her savings for up to, but not more than $10k. So, we need to get $13,500 for the Kioti, without the bush hog.

So, will somebody pay $10k less than new price, for an '09 model with 600 hours ?

We'll see.

[ID67goat]

In my area you could probably get 15k for a tractor like yours....

I would think you should be able to sell fairly quickly at that price....

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by ID67goat

In my area you could probably get 15k for a tractor like yours....

I would think you should be able to sell fairly quickly at that price....

Sure hope so !

I just put the ad on Marketplace, Craigslist, & several other sites.

So far, the only response was a guy wanting to know if the Appy horse is for sale.

But, he's part of the family. The closest to that he'll get would be for TJ to sell him a painted model of that Appy.

[TAKerry]

Why are you selling your tractor? I had a construction company for years and we would keep our equipment until the maintenance cost became prohibitive. Otherwise if it was a good piece we would run it till the end. The idea of getting a new one just because wasnt even thought of.
Never heard of Kioti but I see they are Korean. I suppose most of this kind of stuff is made offshore now, I would surmise even New Holland. I have a buddy with a Kibota that is about 15 years old. He runs it just about every day and loves the thing. May want to expand your search and look at those.
As far as supply, I havent looked at this kind of stuff lately but you may not have the option of being too choosey (which may help with the sale of yours). I know of a fellow that waited almost a year for a couple of zero turn lawn mowers and side by sides are hard to get as well.

[Jay S]

Did that New Holland seem similar to the Kioti? They are both made by Daedong. Bigger New Hollands are made by LS.

[ponyakr]

" Why are you selling your tractor?..."

So my wife can learn how to use a tractor. I've taught her how to get on it & drive around. But, with all the pedals & levers to operate, she does not feel comfortable trying to do any serious work with it.

So, I asked her if she'd be willing to learn how to do more with it, if we got one with an auto(HST) trans. Her answer was yes.

That's enuff for me. There are times when she could save me some time & work, if she could handle the tractor. There are also times when it would be more convenient for her, if she didn't have to wait for me to operate the tractor for something she needs it to do.

Every tractor I've driven since age 6 has had a manual trans. So, our current tractor is just fine, for me. Just makes more common sense to have a tractor that we both can operate confidently.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Did that New Holland seem similar to the Kioti? They are both made by Daedong. Bigger New Hollands are made by LS.

Have never heard that. Just Googled it. Can't find exactly who made the Workmaster 25. So, please post a link to info showing that Daedong builds 'em. Thanks !

I did just watch a video which said that Bobcat & Kioti are both made by Daedong. It shows that the Kioti HST pedals & the brake pedal are all on the right side, BUT, the brake pedal is to the left side of the HST pedals, NOT in front of them, like on some tractors.

It has the PTO clutch on the left side. The guy explained how a clutch is better than an electric PTO switch. It makes lots of common sense to me. You can ease the clutch out, which will allow the PTO shaft to begin turning gradually. There is enuff info on this video to make me take a serious look at a CK2601 HST tractor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIAqYqJauYU

[Jack P.]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Have never heard that. Just Googled it. Can't find exactly who made the Workmaster 25. So, please post a link to info showing that Daedong builds 'em. Thanks !

I did just watch a video which said that Bobcat & Kioti are both made by Daedong. It shows that the Kioti HST pedals & the brake pedal are all on the right side, BUT, the brake pedal is to the left side of the HST pedals, NOT in front of them, like on some tractors.

It has the PTO clutch on the left side. The guy explained how a clutch is better than an electric PTO switch. It makes lots of common sense to me. You can ease the clutch out, which will allow the PTO shaft to begin turning gradually. There is enuff info on this video to make me take a serious look at a CK2601 HST tractor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIAqYqJauYU

I can confirm the clutch pedal works great for engaging the PTO equipment. If your
tilling roots or hard ground, you can pedal it instead of stalling or breaking shear pins.

[ponyakr]

So, with what little research I've done, so far, I have 2 clear choices.

(1) New Holland Workmaster 25 HST

This are the best videos of it I've seen, so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk94-GD_wGk&t=8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWLdVJPrZd0&t=201s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-gis5mHtA8

(2) Kioti CK2601 HST

And this is the best video I've seen of it, so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIAqYqJauYU

Not planning on getting a grapple. but thought this was a good video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMybz4vskQU&t=292s

The main difference I see is that the Kioti has a clutch engage/disengage type PTO, with a single brake pedal on the right side, whereas the Workmaster has an electric engage/disengage type PTO, with dual brake pedals on the left side.

Here's my thoughts about 'em, so far.

(1) I like the idea of a clutch for the PTO. I've had my bush hog hit stuff that was hidden under thick grass, creating the need to stop the PTO quickly. In these situations, I'd quickly mash the clutch pedal all the way down, both stopping forward movement & stopping the PTO. Having never used electric PTO on a tractor, I don't know how quickly I could stop the PTO.

(2) What about the harshness of electric PTO engagement ?

All I have to compare it to is the lawn tractors we've had. At any rpm much above a fast idle, the blade engagement seems really harsh. Thinking about the heavy drum & blades of the rotary cutter(which as ya'll can tell I refer to as a "bush hog", regardless of brand). Seems that an instant "ON" of the PTO might put quite a strain on everything that's trying to turn the heavy drum/blades. OR, does the electric PTO start/stop system actually engage the PTO gradually ? I just have absolutely no experience with a tractor elec start PTO.

(3) The Kioti only has one brake pedal. As the guy on one of the videos said, if you have a separate brake pedal for each rear wheel, it can assist you with turning, in some situations. BUT, I just went out & looked at our Kioti. It has 2 brake pedals. But they are hooked together. They've been like that since I got the tractor, in '09. So, I suppose I've never needed to make a brake assisted turn. Therefore, having only one pedal for both rear brakes is NOT a problem, for me.

(4) Forgot about this 'til I just saw it on a video.

The Kioti has the loader joystick back near the fender, rather than mounted on the loader. I like that rear location on our Kioti. Don't know if I'd like the loader mounted stick, or not.

[Formulabruce]

My thoughts.
If you want to back drag off pavement, you will love
Dual brakes for steering when front end gets light or off the ground and the surface is crowned or muddy.
The HST takes some Torque / HP away from the engine. While easier for loader work, you will loose some pto power and pulling power. STICK tractors put it all on the ground/ better % to pto.
Make sure you can get parts. Ask forums about people who have had experience with that.
Can they fill rear tires for free?? Price include ballast box?
Bucket at least 61 inches?
GLWS some places have no used tractors.

[ponyakr]

"...you will love
Dual brakes for steering when front end gets light or off the ground..."

Of those I haven't eliminated yet, only the New Holland has dual brake pedals.

I just watched the Branson 2515H video again. Looks like elec PTO switch & one left side brake pedal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ5R3u0uvBA

https://www.davestractor.com/wp/port...ctory-pricing/

https://www.kenotractors.com/product...or-and-loader/

I've heard & read that Branson tractors have Cummins engines. Looks like maybe they MIGHT be a Cummins/Onan design, made by another company. Don't know if that could be called a Cummins engine, or not. and, don't know if they are any better than any of the other engines used in the popular compact tractors.

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ngines.394254/

[ponyakr]

"...(2) What about the harshness of electric PTO engagement ?

All I have to compare it to is the lawn tractors we've had. At any rpm much above a fast idle, the blade engagement seems really harsh. Thinking about the heavy drum & blades of the rotary cutter(which as ya'll can tell I refer to as a "bush hog", regardless of brand). Seems that an instant "ON" of the PTO might put quite a strain on everything that's trying to turn the heavy drum/blades. OR, does the electric PTO start/stop system actually engage the PTO gradually ? I just have absolutely no experience with a tractor elec start PTO..."

Would like to get more input about this.

So, for you guys who own, or have used tractors, of at least compact tractor size or bigger, that has an elec PTO clutch, what is your experience with it ?

More specifically, how is the start-up of a 5' or larger bush hog ?

Is it "instant ON", like a lawn tractor ?

Or is it more smooth & slightly gradual ?

How much throttle is required to start the drum/blades turning, without killing the engine ?

I assume there would be less wear & tear & possible damage if the PTO can be engaged at a low rpm, then increase to operating speed, after the drum/blades are turning. I've always done this with lawn mowers & tractors.

This is important to me, in making a new tractor choice.

I'd really prefer to have the foot pedal PTO clutch. BUT, because of the placement of the brake pedal, on HST models with a foot pedal PTO clutch, the only tractor like that I'd consider, right now, is the CK2610 HST Kioti.

BUT, on that tractor, even tho the brake pedal is beside the forward HST pedal, if you need to stop quick, you must pick your foot up off the HST pedal, raise your foot up high enuff to get it above the brake pedal, then mash that pedal down far enuff to engage the brakes. All that takes time.

Also, I'm past '70 now. So, that might make the braking operation even a little slower, for me. So, I'm thinking that having the brake pedal on the left side would allow me to have my foot on the pedal when anticipating a possible quick stop. This should allow for a much quicker stop, than would be possible for me, if I had a right side brake pedal.

Anybody here have experience with BOTH HST brake set-ups ?

Another thing I just noticed about the Kioti set-up is how small the brake pedal is. For me, that could easily make the brake pedal harder to stab, if I needed to brake quickly. That MAY eliminate the Kioti, for me. The Workmaster brake pedals are big enuff, they'd be hard to miss, if you needed to brake quickly. When hooked together, they're probably 8" wide, or more.

[dhutton]

Brake pedal belongs on the right where most folks are used to it. Moving it to the left is a recipe for disaster imho.

Don

[Jay S]

Here is a link to the tractor mfg’s by Daedong, if you scroll down a ways you can find the smaller New Hollands.

https://tractors.fandom.com/wiki/Lis...ther_companies

More or less there are 7 major compact tractor manufacturers. Mahindra, John Deere, Kubota, AGCO, Daedong, LS, and TYM. Lots of models jump between different lines but use the same mfg company. TYM uses an A series cummins diesel and also some Yanmar engines. Should be ok either way. John Deere uses Yanmar.

TYM builds a tractor line and they make the Branson line, and also makes some of Mahindra’a tractors smaller tractors for Mahindra. Along with Badboy and several other white label companies, I think at one time they made a tractor for Cabbalas.

IRC LS and TYM have some overlap in compact tractors as well in the big so distant past.


From reading your goals for your new tractor I would be more concerned about getting a tractor that is a better fit for your wife. One that is a little simpler to run. The electric clutch with the single switch will likely be easier to operate, main thing is to idle the tractor down on engagement. The brake pedal that operates both brakes will be less confusing too. Antique tractors use to have the left brake on one side of the platform and the right brake on the other. I think it is kind of hilarious someone thought that was a good idea again. Was popular in the 1920-1930 era tractors…I would clearly prefer 2 separate brakes the you can lock together on the right side.

As long as the tractor is idled down the electric clutch is ok. I have some tractors with touchy engagement on the PT0, even the mechanical engagement can be touchy to engage if it has a sharp clutch engagement. That little engine should be ok with an electric activated clutch.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by dhutton

Brake pedal belongs on the right where most folks are used to it. Moving it to the left is a recipe for disaster imho.

Don

I totally disagree with that.

One reason is because TJ & I are both use to having the brake on the left side of our lawn tractors.

Another is because we both made so many drag strip passes, where we had to hold the brake with the left foot, on the line, before launch.

Very often, if I'm 1st in line at a red light, I hold the brake with my left foot, with my right on the gas pedal, then move immediately, when the light turns green, just for kicks. It's usually quite a while before the vehicle that was behind me moves.

It's almost like most drivers don't even realize that the light is about to change, & it surprises them so much that it takes them a sec or 2 before they decide to move forward. Then some are on their cell phone & don't care if they hold up traffic behind them.


"Here is a link to the tractor mfg’s by Daedong, if you scroll down a ways you can find the smaller New Hollands."

Yeah, I saw that site. But it says "Boomer" models.

So, do you have a link showing that they make Workmaster 25 tractors ?

I'm not saying they don't. I have no idea.

Also noticed that the info on that site you linked shows that the Boomer models have Mitsubishi engines. Does that mean that the Workmaster 25 has a Mitsubishi engine ?

Enlarged a couple of Branson 2515H pics. The 1st one shows the HST & brake pedals. The 2nd shows the brake pedal, fuel tank, & step. Obviously, the single brake pedal is not as big as the 2 NH pedals hooked together, but should be adequate.

[ponyakr]

"...More or less there are 7 major compact tractor manufacturers. Mahindra, John Deere, Kubota, AGCO, Daedong, LS, and TYM. Lots of models jump between different lines but use the same mfg company. TYM uses an A series cummins diesel and also some Yanmar engines. Should be ok either way. John Deere uses Yanmar..."

So, are some of these better than others ? Some to be avoided ? Some engines better than others ? Most about equal ?

In most ALL the stuff I've read about compact tractors, the MOST important thing to consider is the dealer. After the 1st week, I haven't needed a dealer for my Kioti. But, if you have problems covered by the warranty, I can see where the dealer is extremely important.

Last night I discovered that some Rural King stores sell & service RK tractors, made by TYM. That won't help me any, since the closest stores are in AL, TN, & MO.

https://www.rktractors.com/

[dhutton]

Good luck drag racing your tractor. . Sounds like you will be quickest off the line…

Don

[Sirrotica]

As with any electric operated PTO, you engage it at low RPM, then increase the engine speed after the attachment is spinning. I see owners of lawn equipment all the time, throttle up the engine, before engaging the mower. They're abusing the clutch, as well as the belt by doing this. The belt on a mower isn't a picnic to change, so I like to get as much life out of them as possible.

I also see the EPTO better for your wife, as flipping a switch, can happen much quicker than slamming a clutch pedal in an emergency situation. I.E. hitting a piece of debris with the mower.

If the manually operated PTO was a huge advantage, manufactures would be pointing this feature out to prospective buyers. I don't know how the manual PTO clutch is physically situated in a tractor, as opposed to the EPTO, but as far as serviceability, I'd bet the EPTO is easier to service. Not having to split the transaxle away from the engine is a plus. if that's where it's located. Again, I have no experience with small tractors, just lawn equipment.

The EPTO s also used in under hood hydraulic pumps in wreckers and roll backs, powered by a belt running off of the crankshaft. They get used pretty hard on wreckers, and failure rate isn't bad for the clutches, the pumps usually fail, before the clutch does. Again a good wrecker operator will engage the pump at low RPM, then using a hand throttle, bring the RPM up to operating speed.

Getting used to different controls operating a new piece of equipment, does take some getting used to, but as anything else, seat time makes you better at it.

I know I've had plenty of mowers with manually controlled clutch mechanisms, and the last 2 I've owned were hydrostatic, I'll take the hydrostatic over a manual every time. Once the clutch is disengaged your freewheeling depending on the ground you're on.

I witnessed this one time when i as 12 years old. My father and I were in a trailer being pulled by hired help at a ski resort. The guy was ascending the hill and he was in too high of a gear to make it, tried to grab a lower gear before the tractor stalled, and as soon as he disengaged the clutch the tractor started backwards, and for whatever reason, he cut the steering wheel. The tractor jack knifes on the drawbar and the rear wheel hit the trailer tongue, and stopped it. Tractor comes to rest at 90 degree angle from the trailer. My dad and I had jumped out of the trailer as we saw what was happening. It could have ended up with the tractor rolling down the hill, but for the trailer tongue not snapping off (it was a 4x4 piece of wood). God was looking out for the 3 of us that day.

If the operator had just let the engine stall, and not disengage the clutch this would have been fine, but him disengaging the clutch was the icing on the cake.

I have 3 trucks, and 4 cars, one stick, 6 automatics. They have column shifts, and floor shifts, plus lawn equipment, getting out of one, and into another s sometimes confusing. I once broke the wiper switch stalk off on my 05 GTO, trying to use it for a column shift.......

I believe you'll be fine with an EPTO, once you get used to the differences in operating procedure.

I was wondering if you had considered RK, but not having a store within driving distance kind of kills that option. They do have a good warranty on their tractors, but also only doing basic maintenance at stores (oil and filters) isn't much help if a major failure happens under warranty. I suppose they farm out major repairs to a service facility, I can't see them splitting a tractor apart in the back room of a RK store, with stock clerks doing the work....LOL

[ponyakr]

"...I believe you'll be fine with an EPTO, once you get used to the differences in operating procedure..."

Yeah, if we get one with the brake on the left side, the bigger tractor will operate just like the lawn tractor we have. Forward & reverse pedals on the right side, brakes on the left side, & PTO switch to the right of the steering wheel. Shouldn't take hardly any getting use to, at all, since we both use that JD lawn tractor quite a bit.

[Jay S]

I did a little further looking and it appears the New Holland your looking at is made by LS mitron for New Holland, but their boomer is made by Daedong. Looks like the best way to tell might be the pedals. The tractors made by LS have the brake pedal on both sides, versus the Daedong have one brake. Not sure what engine the workmaster run.

As far as the different tractor mfg’s and dealers, i agree for service the dealer important. It is good to know your tractors pedigree so you can get parts from different companies if needed, or you may find a dealer that supports your tractor brand better than a dealer you bought if from. Even though it is a different color and has a different name, a lot of the driveline may be the same with better service from a different branch of the tractor mfg.

For example I have heard people running LS brand tractors to use New Holland parts, service and operators manuals. Also on some models CaseIH would have almost a identical tractor, it is just painted red and likely has some small features that are different.

I would have to look closer at each tractor to make a judgment call on how the brakes operate with the rest of the tractor’s controls. The brake on both sides could work fine depending on how they have the forward and reverse, clutch, or inching pedal set up for the tractor. I could see that dual brake pedal, with one on each side, working ok on a hydrostat type drive. I would have to see the drive control layout before making a judgment call whether I liked it or not.

I have limited experience with the compact tractors, I can’t make a fair statement about all 7 of the major mfg’s. John Deere absolutely has the best, easiest to install and remove, attachments. I like Kubota’s engines, smooth with less vibration that most others. The best over all service from shortline companies, with the most regional dealers here in the states are probably variations of Daedong tractor’s, kioti and Bobcat. New Holland has a lot of shortline type dealers, they likely are comparable for service with John Deere and Kabota. Not a ton of difference between those main models of compacts. Mahindra is right in there also, depending on if the dealer is in your neighbor hood.