[151007]

After 40 years of involvement with 64 - 67 GTO's I've started looking for a 69 Judge. There is currently one on ebay, item number 130858839742, expiring Sunday, March 3. I normally stay away from cars in the Midwest and East because of rust issues but this one has California origins. The car has factroy air conditioning, but the seller's PHS document shown doesn't indicate air conditioning as an option for this particular car. I talked with the seller and he said a former president of the local GTO club told him it wasn't unusual for cars of that era not to show all equipment on invoices. Is that true for this car? Is anyone in the Minneapolis area familiar with this car?

[PMD1969]

Dealer installed?

[1969 Ram Air]

The PHS would list a/c if the car was built with it.

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by 1969 Ram Air

The PHS would list a/c if the car was built with it.

Agree. For a '69 Judge to not have a $400 option listed on the invoice, is very suspect. It is also very difficult to add factory a/c to a '69 GTO. Dash asm is different, cowl is cut out differently, kick panel structure... different. An a/c equipped '69 Judge would have 3.23 gears. A non a/c 4spd '69 RAIII GTO would most likely have 3.55 gearing (if not optioned with 3.90's or 4.33's). Between wanting to personally inspect the cowl with the A/C suitcase removed, I would want to know what rearend is in the car, or what has been done with the original rearend. Does the invoice copy show Safe-T-Track or HD Safe-T-Track? HD Safe-T-Track was not avail with a 3.23.

[Jerry H.]

If you're looking at a 69 Judge, I would consider the one that Jimmy Daniel has for sale right here on this board. Liberty Blue, with a fantasy restoration! It is priced less than the one on Ebay now.

[Held for Ransom]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=130858839742

GTO JOHN should know about the car.

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by 151007

After 40 years of involvement with 64 - 67 GTO's I've started looking for a 69 Judge. There is currently one on ebay, item number 130858839742, expiring Sunday, March 3. I normally stay away from cars in the Midwest and East because of rust issues but this one has California origins. The car has factroy air conditioning, but the seller's PHS document shown doesn't indicate air conditioning as an option for this particular car. I talked with the seller and he said a former president of the local GTO club told him it wasn't unusual for cars of that era not to show all equipment on invoices. Is that true for this car? Is anyone in the Minneapolis area familiar with this car?

To the former president of said local gto club ."Hogwash"

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 151007

I talked with the seller and he said a former president of the local GTO club told him it wasn't unusual for cars of that era not to show all equipment on invoices.

Absolutely not true.

The invoice is how the dealer (and the corporation) got paid for the option.

I have seen corrections on the billing history card (both additions and/or subtractions) for minor option adjustments, like tachometers or whitewall tires - but it is still accounted for.

K

[1oldgoat]

Sounds like it might have been re-bodied with an A/C body and a "story" was invented to cover it up. Just my $.02.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

We have discovered just a few errors on Invoices.
Usually they are very minor.
But PB or someone - had an Invoice for a 72 455HO car they owned - that didn't have charge for 455HO on invoice. Was an X VIN car too.
And he didn't have original window sticker to verify if dealer still charged for the engine or not - or a buildsheet for the car - iirc.


So its remotely possible .... but highly unlikely ..... that AC option was missed on invoice.


Also look at what oPh said about rear axle.
And this car shows to have been 3.55 HD Nodular Posi - so that doesn't jive with AC.
So IF the car WAS factory AC - that would make the invoice Double Faulted.
hmm .... its getting more HogWashy sounding again now.


Missing engine on a Ram III AC car with just 44k actual original miles doesn't jive well either - but things happen. The car has been "done over" ... and adding AC during that could be a possibility - although so major - that history should have openly followed the car.

The paint in the fender jambs, door jambs, and trunk jambs is not factory paint like seller thinks. HOWEVER ... in the trunk jamb - on the inside lip of weatherstrip channel - that paint there actually does appear original. And gives indication it was a factory orange body (as in not a generic rebody).

A clean dry Fremont car should have a real nice Build Sheet on top of gas tank.
If AC and 3.23 don't appear on Build Sheet - the car would need some real close hands on examination to see whats been done - or not done.

In this case - it needs that type examination regardless.
Seller should have already taken that initiative long ago.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

72 GTO with free 455HO upgrade
X code VIN

[GTO JOHN]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=130858839742

GTO JOHN should know about the car.

I just got wind of this thread from HFR. I do know the car. I have seen it myself although I have never done a complete inspection. The car never has been for sale until this winter when it popped up on the local Craigslist in Nov-Dec. I had never seen the PHS until the ebay auction and I did notice the same A/C descrepancy at that time.

I sure hope the owner (Scott) is not referring to me as "the former local GTO club President" who told him such nonsense. In fact, the last three guys to serve as local GTO club Presidents over the past 6 years would all know that statement is not possible. The PHS shows the factory options and A/C is not one of them. Only a gross misunderstanding of facts could lead him to believe that or the mis-information came from a long-past former president.

Right away everyone (including me) will assume it has been rebodied based on the initial information and pictures, however there could be an explanation to prove car is legit. Only a complete inspection will recify that fact. It is possible that factory A/C was added by someone along the way. I don't know who Scott bought the car from or where it was prior to him owning it. Before the ebay auction came up and I saw the PHS for the first time, I never suspected anything was out of order. If factory A/C was added, it was done very well. If it was rebodied, I will be able to identify that fact.

I would be willing to inspect the car for anyone serious about it if Scott is willing to allow an inspection. Other than the A/C issue the car is a very clean body and has nice paint and very good options.

John

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Even if there were no Invoice issue - anyone would do themselves very well to have John give the car a personal inspection. He is very affluent with 69's too.
But don't waste his time just for curiosity sake.

Wanted to add - that maybe the trunk jambs could be factory paint - its iffy and would have to be seen in person. Door and fender jambs have been done tho - and usually folks do them all if they do any.

Was under an impression the seller had owned this car a long time - but don't think that is the case.

He also mentions having installed Ram4 intake and exhaust manifolds.
Intake appears cast iron , and IV exhaust mans will not go on D-port heads.
It must have had logs on it - so no telling what variety engine is in the car.

I'd want a polished veteran to have a better look at this one

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

i'm almost certain now that this car went through eBay 2-3-4 years ago. (maybe even 5-6 years , time flies)
And this same topic was brought up about it on here - back then.
Just seems real dejavu now ....


Not saying current owner was the seller back then - but he might have been the buyer.

[Held for Ransom]

Baron, are you sure you're not thinking about this thread/car (it's a different car)?
http://www.forums.maxperformanceinc....d.php?t=525127

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Nope

Car i'm thinking of was a nice restored CR 4spd with AC - but no AC on PHS.
Not sure what part of country it was being sold from.

It was back when "almost" every Judge that came on eBay - either had its own thread on here - or was mentioned in some thread.

But not as far back when literally every eBay Judge had a thread on it.

Been a couple few years at least.
Doesn't look like i kept a copy of that PHS - will try to look again.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Or maybe it was longer ago - just about has to be same car i'm thinking of ...

here is info given on this car when it was - i guess - on consignment recently at Arrow Buick GMC - sounds like he has owned it for about 6 years


I have owned it for about six years and it has been inspected by one of the best body men and painters in Minneapolis he believes it has had one light repaint. Here's what I know about the car from a Judge for the Land O lakes Gto club. All seals are factory and in great shape, glass is original, interior is original, even the door locks have paint where it's supposed to be! Wheels are not date code correct, block is not original but date code correct, carb is not correct, Trans is correct for car but did not come from the factory.

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-ca...-79605126.html

[GTO JOHN]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

i'm almost certain now that this car went through eBay 2-3-4 years ago. (maybe even 5-6 years , time flies)
And this same topic was brought up about it on here - back then.
Just seems real dejavu now ....


Not saying current owner was the seller back then - but he might have been the buyer.

Your right on the money!!! After seeing this post I checked my archives and found the following photos that I saved off ebay on 9/1/2006.

Same car and by the looks of the front ARROW plate, same owner. I had ID'd it as an auto A/C car at that time but noted 4spd original. I don't think the PHS was posted on ebay at that time since I do not have a copy of it from then and it is not in north's data either. It must have been noted in the text. Could not locate original auction page on any search engines.

[GTO JOHN]

The current Judge owner is also the owner of Arrow Buick GMC (formerly Arrow Pontiac) He is a good guy and is not out to fool anyone about the car. I am almsot certain he bought the car in it's current state and now wants to sell it. I would ask him who he bought it from and where. Sombody other than the current owner is the one who worked on the car.

[Held for Ransom]

http://www.forums.maxperformanceinc....d.php?t=490507