[RocktimusPryme]

Note here, I’m not talking about you guys. It’s been talked about several times that the information put forth here is worth it’s weight in gold compared to social media groups.

But be it talking to random people at shows or especially on Facebook groups dudes can bury their head in the sand with the best of the big birds.

The easy target, LS swaps are common. So common many of us are tired of them. That being said the advantages are obvious if you keep your head out of the dirt. Someone will post in the group say a new LT4 swap and inevitably someone chimes in “You could have just put in a budget 400 with #13 heads. Add 4.10 gears and it would run circles around that new junk”

NO. NO it wouldn’t have. Why would you even say that!

Today a dude posts a 2JZ he swapped into a first gen. Not what I would have done but it was clean and at least interesting. I said I thought it would be cool if it was an original sprint. Keep straight 6 power and all. So here comes someone “well Just turbo the sprint motor and it’s the same”. I’m sorry, the sprint 6 is a cool peice but it isn’t in the same conversation as a 2JZ or RB32 or any number of newer straight 6 engines designed for boost. Not even mentioning aftermarket support.

All the time I find myself playing devils advocate for THINGS I DONT EVEN LIKE. Thing is I’m not defending that particular idea but rather reason and intelligence.

You can be an enthusiast, hell even a hardline purist and still be reasonable. If you like 14s and redlines that’s totally fine. It doesn’t have to mean that 50 year old drum brakes are superior to big C5 discs that you can fit behind 17” wheels

End rant.

[64speed]

I realize a good LS will probably run circles around my 467 but when I walk up to a GTO etc at a car show and see an LS I just move on. Kind of like chevys in Pontiacs

[goatless]

I'm not burying my head in the sand. I like my old cars to have old motors. I like my old cars to look and feel like old cars.

Some people like the idea of an old car. They like the styling. They like to tell people they like old cars. But then they want to get rid of any of the inconveniences of an old car. They want to have the looks of an old car, but they really want a new car.

All of my old cars are full of old tech. And yet I drive them all the time, everywhere. They start every time. They handle and stop well enough to drive in modern traffic. What would I gain by trying to stuff them full of "new technology"?

I see guys all the time- stuffing their car full of tubular control arms, big brakes, ridiculously big tires and wheels, LS motors, etc., etc. What do they gain over my "out of date" "head buried in the sand" old school car? Nothing. Most of them use their car less and drive them slower than I do.

All the great new technology has a place. And I'm glad to see that hot rodding is still alive with the newer cars. For while in the '80s and '90s it looked like technology was going to kill hot rodding. Just don't think that people are "burying their head in the sand" if they don't want to use it.

[shaker455]

It's just a simple resurgence just like back in the 80's.
Most people that wanted a built engine would swap to a Chevy cause there wasn't an abundance of aftermarket parts...
hence me collecting SD parts.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Such "upgrades"are like Led Zeppelin with dueling or jamming Synthesizers.

Here'sa MY take on the wrongk "upgrades" in a Classic Pontiac boatanchor;

Sub-woofer
Trunk consumed by audio ( unless itsa Hurst doing the BluesBrothers thing)
Turbo-street on a non-turbo model
Curb-scrapers
Most neon-lit pavement lights
Most LED headlamps, any plastic Headlamps replacing original glass.
Most any gold-plated emblems
Anything tring for the uber-urban look

1" tall sidewalls Streetcar
1" clearance suspension Streetcar
1" ground clearance Streetcar

Any Caddilac motor
Any Ford motor
Any small Chevy motor
Any Buick motor
Any Jaguar rear
Any 4-wheel drive combo (excpet the Olds toronado or Caddy FWD approach)

Pathetic response: Only seen 1 LS swap ( in a restored 75 TA ) i was okay with that, but car value was nowhere near Seller's asking price. I tink he's stuck with it.

[skullbucket]

Im not really sure how I feel about the "LS" swap in everything they can get it to fit in, I just know I wouldn't buy a car someone transplanted a computerized engine in because who knows the electrical nightmare that is ahead for the new owner.
How do you know every ground is hooked up to a real good piece of metal, or is the o2 sensor really where it should be verses the most convenient place instead, is the computer placed where it can get cool air verses going under water when a pot hole is hit?
I think about this stuff because when I buy an old car and see 5ft of spark plug wire zip tied to the steering column, a 3 inch air filter tightened down to 2 inches, home made cereal box gasket under the carburetor and ETC you can't be real confident in someone mating a computerized engine to a 46 year old car frame.

[1965gp]

I agree with the OP- just because it isn’t your thing doesn’t require you to dislike the work or research that went into it.

Case in point- I’m not a 62-64 impala low rider fan...but when you look at some of the fab and paint work on those cars it’s amazing.

I agree that I don’t want a LS motor in my old Pontiacs. Doesn’t look sound or feel right to me. But it is hard to argue the idea of a reliable 600 HP with the AC on - if that is what the cars owner wants.

I will sometimes discuss the idea of cost of a LS swap. The motor is easy to get, the trans tunnel mod, headers, harness, oil pan, mounts, gauges etc are what bring the cost up. People go into a swap thinking they bought a motor/trans for $1300 and they are done spending money.

If the owner is looking for reliability and ease of maintenance I think you could probably rebuild a Pontiac motor for about the same price as the swap.

In the case of the first gen originally discussed- I imagine the owner wanted to something different and cool which it sounds like they did. I for one would love to see it.

[necdb3]

I always look at someone's work. It may not interest me in any way but I can still appreciate the time and money someone spent to make it the way they want it.

That being said, I prefer a Pontiac in a Pontiac.

[tom s]

Sorry,NO interest in a non pontiac motor in a pontiac.NONE!Sell the car to someone that likes the history,buy a chevy and put your LS in it.JMHO!Tom

[locomotivebreath]

I too like my old stuff with the old engines . I like my old cars because they are old cars with their own personality . If I want ls power or overdrive or blue tooth , I’ll just go buy a Camaro or whatever . I loved the 5.3 in my Silverado & the overdrive but what I didn’t have was a 400 - Muncie 4speed !

[Mister Pontiac]

I hear what you're saying, Rocktymus, and I agree with you. There is nothing wrong with appreciating someone's work and the effort they put into it, even if it's not something I would personally do. And you're right, the new stuff can have some wonderful advantages. However, that does not mean it's something I want. But since it's not my car, it does not matter what I think. I am happy to compliment a guy on a job well done, regardless of what it is. Like you said, if it's well done, it's respect for their efforts.

Personally, I think goatless and I share a similar perspective and he summed it up well... "I like my old cars to look and feel like old cars." Yep. Me too. For me, driving my Pontiac's is a full 'sensory' experience. I want the car to look, act, sound, feel and smell like an old Pontiac. Of course I will add some modern touches here and there (Radial tires, aftermarket wheels perhaps, etc...), but I don't want to stray too far from the way the factory did it. That's me, and that's how I enjoy my cars.

So the guys with the modern upgrades/engine swaps? I'm sure they can appreciate the old stuff too, but it's not what they want. And that's perfectly fine.

To me, that is the beauty of the hobby. Everyone gets to do what they want with their own cars.

[tooski]

In the late 70's and the 80's my wife would ride and even drive my 75 FB. Now she won't even get in it because it does not have air bags, not as smooth riding and too loud.

I am also on a chevy forum. A guy who hasn't been on in a while starts a thread asking for advice or if anyone has put a 409 in a Nova, because that is his plan. Most of the replies were "Why would you want to do that?", or "you really should put in an LS, much less hassle." His last post in effect was: 'Now I remember why I left in the first place. A bunch of guys telling me what I should do with my car and no advice for my build."
On that site not any negative comments about my Pontiac engine in a chevy, cuz the engine is in. Not many replies either.

[RocktimusPryme]

Some of you guys are missing my point. It has nothing to do with liking LS swaps or tubular contral arms etc. Some of that stuff I dont like myself.

What Im railing against is when someone does one of these things. Lets go with a newer stereo head unit because I think it looks strange too in a classic.

Someone sees a 2017 style head unit in a 66 GTO and then will say "Why would you do that?"

What do you mean why? There is no why, the why is obvious. You can do hands free calling and sync your iphone up to it, thats why. Yeah it looks weird but just because you find the ascetics off putting dont pretend that the newer radio isnt an upgrade.

When someone uses an OD transmission, I get it there is no why, fuel injection, the same, big brakes, Ford 9" rear ends, reclining seats, I could go on.

Im not telling anyone they have to like it or even playing the "they can do what they want with their car" card.

If someone looked at a first generation GTO with 2006 GTO seats in it and said, "Man it just looks outta place to me. I wouldnt do it" THATS FINE I may or may not agree but its an acceptable sentiment. Acting like the 50 year newer seats dont provide an upgrade however is not. Thats what Im indignant about.

Wanting your cars to feel like an old car is totally acceptable. But just say that, alot of the guys im complaining about instead turn to stupidity.

[GT182]

Jeremy, I look at it this as most others do. If a guy want to change anything on his car that's not stock, like the engine, I say.. "It's theirs and they can do whatever they want to it. They're spending the money not me." Most people see what they did and just chuckle and walk away. I've seen it happen with a Chevy engine in a 66 GTO and with LS swaps too.

It's kind of works the other way too. Like the flames on my 66 GTO. I didn't do it, I bought it that way. Many people love them but I don't so I haven't changed it or the paint that's not original. Hopefully some day I can do a repaint and go back to the original Martinique Bronze that Baltimore put on it. The car is basicly all stock except the paint with flames and the 400 engine in it. Tho soon it will have disc brakes up front and 3:36 gears in the rear with an Auburn Limited Slip unit in it. (but you won't be able to se that change. )

[ho428]

There's a place for nut and bolt correct cars, there's a place for day two modifications, and there's a place for modern upgrades. But, Ultra modern in a classic car is a unique place. I think a lot has to do with knowing they could have a perfect 100 point car for less than someone spent on a Pro Tour restomod.
I'm fine with a plane Jane car getting whatever done to it, but I hate to see a real GTO, Firebird 400 or T/A turned into a Frankenstein. Sure the owner can do as he pleases but I wouldn't want to see the Mona Lisa repainted wearing a tube top just because they can either.
It's about giving the car whatever respect it deserves and the general public will let you know if they think you crossed that line. Sure the guy may be proud of his LSX swap and PT chassis with Kindig interior in his 1964 GTO, but a lot of people will absolutely hate not the work, but the fact they did that to a 1964 GTO.

[goatless]

I guess I don't really understand the point of the original post then?

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

If someone looked at a first generation GTO with 2006 GTO seats in it and said, "Man it just looks outta place to me. I wouldnt do it" THATS FINE I may or may not agree but its an acceptable sentiment. Acting like the 50 year newer seats dont provide an upgrade however is not. Thats what Im indignant about.

So are you saying that even though I don't like something, I have to admit that is better than original? Using your example, I strongly disagree. First, I actually like the seats in my LeMans. They are quite comfortable, despite not having huge side bolsters and 15 way adjustability. Additionally, the new seats I often see retrofitted into old cars are usually quite a bit bulkier than the old seats forcing them to make the passenger compartment more cramped. As a 6'1" guy, I don't need to make the seating position any tighter. So, upgrade? Not to me.

Yes, there are things that I do consider upgrades. Better stereo, front disc, overdrive, among others. But not when they're taken to stupid levels, ie: Speakers molded into every surface and a trunk full of amps, or six piston calipers and rotors so big you need to use 19" wheels just to clear them.

I won't even get into why I don't think the LS swap is an "upgrade".

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by goatless

I guess I don't really understand the point of the original post then?


So are you saying that even though I don't like something, I have to admit that is better than original? Using your example, I strongly disagree. First, I actually like the seats in my LeMans. They are quite comfortable, despite not having huge side bolsters and 15 way adjustability. Additionally, the new seats I often see retrofitted into old cars are usually quite a bit bulkier than the old seats forcing them to make the passenger compartment more cramped. As a 6'1" guy, I don't need to make the seating position any tighter. So, upgrade? Not to me.

I get size constraints, especially with first gen F Bodys, even factory seats tend to make your head hug the ceiling. You have to work hard to retrofit better seats and still have a normal size man fit in them. But if you were trying to sell me that a brand new seat out of a modern sports car isnt better than the 50 year old, worn out, dryrotted padding, non reclining seats in my 67? Then yeah I would say you are being silly.

Especially if it has seat AC, that stuff will change your life lol.

Again, Im not even defending many of these things, there is just a difference between saying, I dont like it and "that modification has no merit whatsoever.

I suppose its not a surprise, we get the same way about politics. On a macro level there are very few black and white problems. But people get stuck in their ways and refuse to even acknowledge a point on the other side. You can understand the merits of a point of view and still feel your side is better. We dont have to pretend the other side is just bat**** every time. Sometimes it certainly is. We have all perused the epic craigslist ad thread. Sometimes people are just looney, but not every time.

[66sprint6]

Now that I have one that’s all original, I’d love to have another and stuff the whole chassis with engine from my wife’s latest car, an X4 M4.0i, under something. 355 horse, all wheel Drive, 0-60 in 4.4 secs., but in a retro body. That would be a blast.

[Will]

Rocktimus - I get what you're saying.

The guy saying "you could have just put a 400 with iron heads in there and it would be better than that LS" is the perfect example. He shares my sentiment that I prefer an old Pontiac engine in my old Pontiacs (I'd never do an LS swap in a classic Pontiac) but I'm not fooling myself that it would be "better" by any metric you could actually measure. The LS is a very good engine, just not my cup of tea.

People are weird. I've pretty much given up trying to understand why people do what they do.

[1965gp]

Rocktimus- I may be wrong but I thing your point is to respectful of other people’s work. Like it or not (whatever it is) you can still be respectful. In your example of the new head unit or seats in an old car- you can just as easily not say anything or as you said just say you prefer it your way rather than telling the owner they are wrong.