[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I will try on this deal:

1) All of the pistons have a notch that should face the front of the engine no matter which side it is installed on.

2) Pistons with "offsets" are made to eliminate "piston slap" noise

3) Looking at the engine from the flywheel side, the passenger side bank is on the right. The Driver's side bank is on the left.

4) The normal firing order for a pontiac is 18436572. If we move that
one cylinder event forward the numbers would be 21843657, ok?

5) We want to talk about the #2 piston and the #1 piston for our discussion.

6) Wrist pin offset is related to rotation. The offset is designed to direct the angular resistance of the rod on the power stroke more closely to the center of the piston as the rod moves through the stroke. Usually, the piston pin is offset slightly toward the major thrust face to reduce. piston slap against the cylinder wall.

7) With the "notch" facing forward on the #2 piston and the piston having a slight offset towards the major thrust, it will be happy.

8) With the "notch" facing forward on the #1 piston and the piston having a slight offset towards the major thrust, it will be happy. The major thrust side of the cylinder bore will always be on the left side of the cylinder (drivers side) when looking from the flywheel.

Does that make it clear now?

Connecting rods:

1) Even though we call the 1st cylinder on the drivers bank the #1 cylinder, the #2 cylinder is actually farther forward.

2) Lay a crankshaft on the ground with the flywheel flange closest to you. Flywheel flange at 6:00 and balancer snout at 12:00

3) Rotate the first rod journal on the crankshaft so it faces toward 3:00 and visualize two rods installed on the rod journal.

4) The rod closest to the 12:00 position will be the rod for the #2 cylinder and the rod chamfer will face 12:00 on the crank.

5) The second rod on that rod journal will be the #1 rod journal and that rod's chamfer will be facing 6:00

6) The rods are oriented that way for two reasons:
a) The chamfer will clear the crankshaft radius ground into the crankshaft
b) The Bearing tangs will face upward as the crankshaft rotates in the block. Old factory Pontiac rods had oil squirters on the tang side of the rods to cool the piston bottoms and lubricate the camshaft and cylinder walls.

So to answer your questions:

Piston notches to the front
Rod tangs always up and hopefully rod chamfers ground correctly.

Tom V.

ps The first set of piston pictures is correct. The second set is wrong.

Exactly!!!!!

Stan

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by blueghoast

Have the flex plate 0-balanced?
No need for a new one unless it's broke or cracked

GT

Mikes reply:

The new flexplate has four 7/8" holes drilled in it and is externally balanced from the manufacture. So, it comes zero balanced from the factory. Installing this new part and if it stops the ghost noise, will, at the very least, proven where the noise emanated from.This is why I like to address/fix one issue at a time. In order to determine what part was at fault. If I were to jump into rebuilding the bottom of the Motor and the noise is still there when I am done, then I would have fixed the wrong area. Also, I address the easier or quickest choice first, "not" because I am lazy, but frugal.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Exactly!!!!!

Stan

Mikes reply:

One through eight cylinders, as viewed from the Flexplate, the offset pin, if offset orientated toward the left side, will be happy, because the Engine is turning CCW as viewed from the Flexplate? Correct me if I am wrong, please. Note: this seems different when you consider only the CCW rotation and not just the up and down loads on the piston, and not taking into account of the CCW rotation?

Could you define the major and minor in piston offset relationship please?

This is what I thought, that the piston pin was offset, on Pontiac toward the inside, because the Thrust side was on the outside. So, if they reverse the offset of the pin, they would have moved the pin toward the outside.

I can visualize the second part.

You say:

P.S. "The first set of piston pictures is correct. The second set is wrong."

Mikes reply:

What pictures are you talking about?

I reread your statement; the right bank's major is on the outside as I thought and the left Bank's major is on the outside as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, please.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:

One through eight cylinders, as viewed from the Flexplate, the offset pin, if offset orientated toward the left side, will be happy, because the Engine is turning CCW as viewed from the Flexplate? Correct me if I am wrong, please. Note: this seems different when you consider only the CCW rotation and not just the up and down loads on the piston, and not taking into account of the CCW rotation?
Do you mean (# 1 - # 7) only? Confused me.

Could you define the major and minor in piston offset relationship please?

This is what I thought, that the piston pin was offset, on Pontiac toward the inside, because the Thrust side was on the outside. So, if they reverse the offset of the pin, they would have moved the pin toward the outside.

I can visualize the second part.

You say:

P.S. "The first set of piston pictures is correct. The second set is wrong."

Mikes reply:

What pictures are you talking about?

I reread your statement; the right bank's major is on the outside as I thought and the left Bank's major is on the outside as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, please.

Mike made a mistake:

"This is what I thought, that the piston pin was offset, on Pontiac toward the inside, because the Thrust side was on the outside. So, if they reversed the offset of the pin, they would have moved the pin toward the outside."

correction:

This is what I thought, that the piston pin was offset, on Pontiac toward the outside, because the Thrust side was on the outside. So, if they reverse the offset of the pin, they would have moved the pin toward the inside. Contradicting the Factory Engineers.

It might help to rewrite #7, please it has me confused.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

The Flexplate just came in, I have to open the box, see ya later, my roommate is getting ready to take some pictures of the bottom end and inspect the Windage Tray and oil dip stick lower tube connections. Mike out.

[Cliff R]

This thread continues to drag on and at this point going no place.

I have lost sight of what the purpose of the thread was exactly, and where it is headed.

All I know is that the engine was taken apart because it has issues, noise was one of them. Multiple issues found and several modifications/repairs made to correct them.

I beleive the worst issues where a cracked harmonic balancer and some loose valves in the guides. It was also discovered that 7 out of 8 pistons are facing the WRONG direction. BIG flag goes up there as when you install pistons with factory pin offset in them backwards the pistons are wondering all over the place in the bores. Far as I know after 625 responses I'm the ONLY one with direct experience in that area actually having done it . I told Mike very clearly that my DIRECT experience running an engine for an extended period of time, which was apprx 10,000 miles with 8 pistons installed in the wrong direct REQUIRED removal of the engine to correct noise and other issues with it like too much oil consumption for my liking. Plus the engine just never sounded or ran right, but I hate to use vague blanket statements like that, but for sure I knew something was fundamentally wrong with it. It bothered me enough to remove it as it just wasn't making the grade.

I also stated that once the problem was found and the pistons installed the right direct any and ALL issues with that engine were corrected and it went on to lead a very good life in my main mode of transportation (1979 K-5 Blazer) for many years. At the time the engine was removed I was commuting from Williamsburg VA to Portsmouth VA apprx 100 miles round trip 5 days a week. This put a LOT of miles on that engine in a hurry so it was nice to have discovered the pistons in backwards deal and correct that issue. By the time I sold the K-5 Blazer I'd logged almost 200,000 miles on that engine as it frequently made 1200 mile round trips from Va to Ohio and nearly every weekend in the summer months from Williamsburg to the outer banks camping and surf fishing. It also made trips to Florida many times for vacations, and out to Colorado Elk hunting more times than I can count.

After putting the pistons in the correct direction no engine noise and oil consumption was next to nothing between oil changes.

I noted the problems with that engine and the solution but for some reason it went on deaf ears. Even worse some very knowledgeable folks came on and pretty much told Mike it's OK to reverse factory pistons in the bores which only muddied the water here and gave him the "out" he was looking for (my opinion).

So this ill fated engine goes back together with knurled valves guides (another HORRIBLE repair that I have a lot of DIRECT experience with) and thick head gaskets with a new harmonic balancer hanging on the front of it. It has more issues when placed back in service and even after the cam was put back somewhat close to where it should be IT STILL MAKES NOISE!

A REALITY CHECK is needed here. When you go into an engine, or anything else as you move thru your life and you find problems, they need to be corrected or you just might continue to have problems.....DUH?

[steve25]

I too am done with this string of posts in regards to this motor and refuse to offer up any more potential help or idea’s until the OP starts a new more focused post.

There another 5 year long string of post on here that needs to end and start anew with whatever different issues the OP may be having.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

This thread continues to drag on and at this point there is no place.

I have lost sight of what the purpose of the thread was exactly, and where it is headed.

All I know is that the engine was taken apart because it had issues, noise was one of them. Multiple issues found and several modifications/repairs made to correct them.

I believe the worst issues were a cracked harmonic balancer and some loose valves in the guides. It was also discovered that 7 out of 8 pistons are facing the WRONG direction. BIG flag goes up there as when you install pistons with factory pin offset in them backwards the pistons are wandering all over the place in the bores. Far as I know after 625 responses, I'm the ONLY one with direct experience in that area actually having done it. I told Mike very clearly that my DIRECT experience running an engine for an extended period of time, which was approx. 10,000 miles with 8 pistons installed in the wrong direct REQUIRED removal of the engine to correct noise and other issues with it like too much oil consumption for my liking. Plus, the engine just never sounded or ran right, but I hate to use vague blanket statements like that, but for sure I knew something was fundamentally wrong with it. It bothered me enough to remove it as it just wasn't making the grade.

I also stated that once the problem was found and the pistons installed the right direct any and ALL issues with that engine were corrected and it went on to lead a very good life in my main mode of transportation (1979 K-5 Blazer) for many years. At the time the engine was removed I was commuting from Williamsburg VA to Portsmouth VA approx. 100 miles round trip 5 days a week. This put a LOT of miles on that engine in a hurry so it was nice to have discovered the pistons in backwards deal and correct that issue. By the time I sold the K-5 Blazer I'd logged almost 200,000 miles on that engine as it frequently made 1200-mile round trips from Va to Ohio and nearly every weekend in the summer months from Williamsburg to the outer banks camping and surf fishing. It also made trips to Florida many times for vacations, and out to Colorado Elk hunting more times than I can count.

After putting the pistons in the correct direction no engine noise and oil consumption was next to nothing between oil changes.

I noted the problems with that engine and the solution but for some reason it went on deaf ears. Even worse some very knowledgeable folks came on and pretty much told Mike it's OK to reverse factory pistons in the bores which only muddied the water here and gave him the "out" he was looking for (my opinion).

So, this ill-fated engine goes back together with knurled valves guides (another HORRIBLE repair that I have a lot of DIRECT experience with) and thick head gaskets with a new harmonic balancer hanging on the front of it. It has more issues when placed back in service and even after the cam was put back somewhat close to where it should be IT STILL MAKES NOISE!

A REALITY CHECK is needed here. When you go into an engine, or anything else as you move through your life and you find problems, they need to be corrected or you just might continue to have problems.... .DUH?

Cliff, you were 100% correct with the Transmission, when you told me to rebuild it and the diagnostics of the metal "O"-rings were damaged behind the pump, this kept the oil from reaching the three clutch packs, but in my case, going the long way taught me a lot and gave me the confidence to go ahead and build my first Trans. Bonus: it actually works great!

Moving on, this is the same thing at another time, stay with me, please, I am almost there, moving in a positive direction at my own rate.

(1) We pulled the Windage Tray and found no issue.

(2) We inspected the oil filler inner tube and found no issue.

(3) My roommate explained to me how the Windage Tray works on this Motor with the built in scrapers, I have seen the race Windage Trays so I was intrigued by the Pontiac Engineers prowess.

(4) The good news is that the Rods are in correctly, fillet to fillet and round to round, Lou had to feel with his finger, each one, to come to that conclusion. The pictures he took were NFG.

(5) The new Flexplate arrived and I suspect, using my time-honored detective Enginuity, that the thin shim being out of round, at the bolt hole circle x 6 holes is moving along with the Flexplate and the 1/8" reinforcement plate, they too are without centricity or centricalness. If you multiply 6 holes x 3 parts = 18 movement areas that I intend on eliminating, most of it. First, I will use brake quiet behind the Shim and plate. Second, I will use new ARP hardware with Loctite on the threads. The ARP kit comes with ULTRA-TORQUE "fastener assembly lubricant used to precisely replicate all ARP fastener clamp load specification's", part # (100-9908). A picture of part # (100-9908) is in the attachments below with the instructions for its use in this application. New ARP bolts are coming for the Flexplate to Torque Converter soon.

It is my hope and wish that this humble detective puts another problem to rest as he has done so many times before with this second-hand machine, that has been a nightmare for the past 10 years or so. Two steps forward and three steps back it seems.

This repair, being the least of the two repair evils, VS. You're insisting on rebuilding the motor now, today and already! You ever think that I could be right or just plain lucky. Please give me the room to grow with this hobby as you have done, it's the only way that I am going to learn and Mabe save time and money at the same time.

A tribute to your knowledge, it has been very valuable and if I had it to do over again, I would have kept this Vehicle in the drive way, instead of putting another 300 miles on the broken Trans.

On the other hand, this is another story, this is a strong Engine with a few auto-curves to get around, especially when you're starting with a fresh build, which this Motor project essentially is.

Even if this current day repair doesn't fix this latest noise, it is a necessary repair, at this time, IMO. Mike out.

P.S. As was the replacement of the Harmonic Balancer...The long saga goes on, "how do you think I feel?". God, please give me a break with this project, so that I can enjoy it, AMEN.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

More Crank and Piston Caps.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Continuation Crank area ...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Continuation of Crank and Piston 428 ci Pontiac Motor...

I filled in a few photos of my Vehicles Interior , "why waist the Band, by not using all of it, while I am there, using it to begin with?".

[JSchmitz]

Think ya got enough RTV on the oil pan gasket?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

A few more photos...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

Think ya got enough RTV on the oil pan gasket?

You will have to ask my roommate about that one, however when we put the pan back on, we can touch up the paint in that area, I have a full can of engine paint in stock for touch ups.

[Cliff R]

No doubt a good bit of that RTV will end up in the oil pump tube pick up screen. I've pulled down PLENTY of engines assembled with
"generous" amounts of it and much like using teflon tape on fuel fittings that chit comes loose and "snakes" it way into everything.

It's been quite a few decades since I used factory cast iron rods but going from memory here the early rods that used oil spurt holes have the bearing tang on the same side and they face TOWARD THE CAMSHAFT.

Your pics, from what I can see of them having them facing AWAY FROM THE CAMSHAFT. IF I am correct everything involved with your spinning and rotating assembly is FUBAR!......

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here as I don't have the energy to go to out to the shop and dig up a used Pontiac factory rod and not sure I have any made early enough to have spurt holes in them anyhow........

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

No doubt a good bit of that RTV will end up in the oil pump tube pick up screen. I've pulled down PLENTY of engines assembled with
"generous" amounts of it and much like using teflon tape on fuel fittings that chit comes loose and "snakes" it way into everything.

I was going to post a prediction that this engine will spin bearings as a result of RTV in oil pump pickup. Way too much applied here. You can see rows os squeeze out. Ultra Black would be much better in smaller quantity.

One of my least favorite shake my head moments is seeing that people have used sealer, or tape, on flare fitting.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

The reason for this and other long posts that I have Posted is beneficial to me, so I don't have to be looking all over the forum for lots of posts and neither do my readers, I like to run my posts that way. You have the right to run your post any way you want. So, should I. There are others on this site with long posts, but you don't complain about them. Give me a break. In addition, if you look at the 37,784 hits that I have on this post alone, you would know why I am still here. See Mikes: "HO Information Divulged", it has 41,795 hits, last time I looked. Please don't leave, you can always skip over that which you don't want to read, at any time and your input is certainly necessary for the community, as well as me. Other people, all over the world are benefiting from the wisdom on these pages, I have had Moderators say that I present a lot of good info.

Mike out. I must start reassembling this Vehicle to see if I the people that suggested to "see the Windage Tray and Harmonic Balancer and oil dip stick tube", nailed their diagnostics. Since the Rods are orientated correctly that is a relief off my mind. How can you say that I am not making progress?

Let me experiment with this project, as I said before, I am "not" Samantha on Bewitched, that can wiggle her nose to get things done. I do "not" dispute that the Pistons being installed backwards x 7 is affecting the current issue. If that day comes, I will be the first to apologize, honorably, but not yet, not yet. Only quitter's quit, I am a winner.

Once we get humpty dumpty back together again, if any noise is evident, then I will take a video of this Vehicle running for all to see and hear from wince the noise is coming from. Which I think is a good idea from whoever came up with that one.

[Kenth]

Looks like all but # 2 piston rods are mounted backwards with the pistons and oil spurt holes away from cam.
We all know, well almost all, what that means.
This engine is a true disaster and the owner is NOT making anything better.....

BTW, there was nothing wrong with the flexplate, shim or reinforcement ring. And, ALL original Pontiac flexplate shims has 2 oval enlongated holes.
Just tourqe it 95 lb/ft and it will NOT move (or making noises).

[steve25]

All I mean to say is at this point seperate issues your experiencing should go into new post that you start for them.

[steve25]

The last use of the oil spurt holes in the rods was in early 67 326 and 389 Motors.

The holes faced the center of the motor if the rods where oriented right .