[autobahn]

for sure with FAKE boobs ,not sure about selling the GTO, maybe put a LS into it then the fake boobs,the LS would have to have GTO engine covers tho

[ScumOne]

Originally Posted by i82much

Sometimes I think old cars are too much work. I am going to sell my 65 GTO, get a brand new Corvette convertible (red, of course), some leather driving gloves, hair plugs, a spray tan, and a 22 year old girlfriend with fake boobs.

See ya fellas. Wish me luck!

You go, sir!

[i82much]

Originally Posted by autobahn

for sure with FAKE boobs ,not sure about selling the GTO, maybe put a LS into it then the fake boobs,the LS would have to have GTO engine covers tho

Oh no. I'm going to be WAY too busy to bother working on an old car, even an old car with a modern engine. Now where did I put those little blue pills ...

[Scarebird]

don't forget the gold chains and forgetting how to park

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

don't forget the gold chains and forgetting how to park

done and done.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Might want to watch the videos about the Ford Testing that was done on ONE ENGINE over a period of time. I was involved personally with this ECOBOOST project in Research. The info below is NOT ADVERTISING, it is facts.
Do not think the iron block 6.0 liter engine would be in the same shape as the ecoboost engine personally. Info below.

F-150 EcoBoost Test Engine

A production 3.5L EcoBoost V6 engine, #448AA, was randomly selected from the assembly line at Ford’s Cleveland engine plant. This engine had no idea it was in store for 163k miles of brutal endurance testing.

#448AA was Shipped to dynamometer cell 36B in Ford’s Dearborn, MI engine lab and run for 300 hours, this engine’s first experience was a rapid simulation of 150,000 customer miles, including thermal-shock runs in which the engine was cooled to -20F and then heated to +235F, repeatedly.

The engine was shipped to Ford’s Kansas City truck plant where it was installed in an F-150 4X4 Super-Crew. After assembly the truck was driven to Nygaard Timber in Astoria, Oregon, where it dragged a total of 110,000 pounds of logs across the ground (requiring all 420 ft-lb TQ)

Next they drove the truck to Miami Speedway, and hooked it up to a 2-car open trailer carrying two NASCAR Ford Fusions (a total of 11,300 pounds) and run continuously around the oval track for 24 hours (average speed: 82 mph, distance covered: 1,607 miles)

After this they took the truck to Davis Dam in Arizona, where it beat out the 5.3-liter Chevy Silverado V-8 AND the Ram 5.7-liter Hemi V-8 each pulling 9,000 pounds up a 6 percent grade in an uphill towing contest.

The 3.5-liter twin-turbo EcoBoost engine was removed and then installed in a 7,100-pound F-150 Baja race truck. After 1,200 miles of practice they raced the truck 1060 miles in the SCORE Baja 1000, the toughest off-road race in North America, finishing 1st overall in the Stock Engine class.

The truck’s owner said the engine’s fuel economy was so good compared with his previous V8 he skipped 2 planned fuel stops during the grueling trip from Ensenada to La Paz.

After winning in Baja they sent the engine back to dynamometer cell 36B and dyno-tested one final time. It generated 364HP and 420ft-lb TQ, only one horsepower less than its HP rating and exactly Ford’s given torque rating.

Lastly, for the final episode of the F-150 EcoBoost torture test, Ford Motor Co did a complete engine tear-down and inspection of engine #448AA (never been serviced or previously inspected) in front of thousands at the 2011 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, Michigan.

The engine parts were laid out on three huge tables so that when the tear-down was complete, the engineers and the audience could take a closer look.

https://www.full-race.com/articles/what-is-ecoboost/

Tom V.

ps Everyone is allowed an OPINION. ONE FACT IS WORTH 10,000 OPINIONS.
FACT: The engine was designed to win Le Mans, a 24 hr endurance race. Doing the stuff above was a piece of cake.

Actually that is pretty impressive Tom. Reason to be proud.
I think the should have called it their "Le Mans" engine instead of EcoBoost. Kind of a cave in to the enviros but a fine engine anyway you cut it.

[Tom Vaught]

ECOBOOST is a generic term for a Ford engine with a Turbocharged Engine under the hood. Ford has done 3.5L engines, 2.7L engines, 2.3L (4 cylinder) engines for many years now. I drive a 2019 Ecoboost F-150 Truck with the 10 speed trans.

Did a basic search on the timing chain issues and some have 100K on their engines with no issues reported. Some other F-150 Forum guys have swapped FEAD parts on their engines as well as "played with things" and they have had timing chain issues on the 2011 to early 2014 engines.

Like I said I drive an April built 2019 truck. My early 2016 Ecoboost F-150 ran great. One of the best trucks I ever owned. Not one issue with the truck.

Not saying that the Camshafts are not applying a massive load on the chains.
The Fuel Pump driven by the timing Chains/Camshaft applies a load on the timing chains.
And a lot of the engines repaired were high mileage engines.

Seems to me that I was replacing a LOT of TIMING CHAINS and Nylon Upper Timing Gears and a metal lower gear on Firebirds, Tempests, Lemans, and GTOs, and Big Cars because they had engineering problems with Timing Chains and gears in the late 60s and early 70s.

So the Pontiac Boys better read up on their history before they throw rocks about suspect engineering. The EFI pump, especially when played with by a tuner, exerts a massive load on the timing chains and gears of the Ecoboost engines.

Tom V.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

ECOBOOST is a generic term for a Ford engine with a Turbocharged Engine under the hood. Ford has done 3.5L engines, 2.7L engines, 2.3L (4 cylinder) engines for many years now. I drive a 2019 Ecoboost F-150 Truck with the 10 speed trans.

Did a basic search on the timing chain issues and some have 100K on their engines with no issues reported. Some other F-150 Forum guys have swapped FEAD parts on their engines as well as "played with things" and they have had timing chain issues on the 2011 to early 2014 engines.

Like I said I drive an April built 2019 truck. My early 2016 Ecoboost F-150 ran great. One of the best trucks I ever owned. Not one issue with the truck.

Not saying that the Camshafts are not applying a massive load on the chains.
The Fuel Pump driven by the timing Chains/Camshaft applies a load on the timing chains.
And a lot of the engines repaired were high mileage engines.

Seems to me that I was replacing a LOT of TIMING CHAINS and Nylon Upper Timing Gears and a metal lower gear on Firebirds, Tempests, Lemans, and GTOs, and Big Cars because they had engineering problems with Timing Chains and gears in the late 60s and early 70s.

So the Pontiac Boys better read up on their history before they throw rocks about suspect engineering. The EFI pump, especially when played with by a tuner, exerts a massive load on the timing chains and gears of the Ecoboost engines.

Tom V.

I suspect that I will have to deal with the very long timing chain on my Tundra at some point. Going to have to pull off the front of the engine and maybe the truck when that day comes.
Hope there are a few good U Tube videos about it along with a good manual on the subject.
You are exactly right on the PMD/nylon timing gear issues. One of my first memories about my father working on our Pontiacs was doing a valve job on our 66 Catalina. Had to be around 1970-71. I was hanging out in the garage asking questions being a annoying kid and when he was done went out on the test drive. He floored it and it ran great until the nylon gear let loose. He was depressed. But, took it apart and replaced it with a all metal one and it ran great. Early lesson, must have been 5-6 years old.

[242177P]

Even with more efficient torque convertors, there's still slippage. Is the 5000 rpm under
load perhaps used for better coupling, or do they use lockup while it's in this mode?
(either way, there's considerably more fluid flow)

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

ECOBOOST is a generic term for a Ford engine with a Turbocharged Engine under the hood. Ford has done 3.5L engines, 2.7L engines, 2.3L (4 cylinder) engines for many years now. I drive a 2019 Ecoboost F-150 Truck with the 10 speed trans.

Did a basic search on the timing chain issues and some have 100K on their engines with no issues reported. Some other F-150 Forum guys have swapped FEAD parts on their engines as well as "played with things" and they have had timing chain issues on the 2011 to early 2014 engines.

Like I said I drive an April built 2019 truck. My early 2016 Ecoboost F-150 ran great. One of the best trucks I ever owned. Not one issue with the truck.

Not saying that the Camshafts are not applying a massive load on the chains.
The Fuel Pump driven by the timing Chains/Camshaft applies a load on the timing chains.
And a lot of the engines repaired were high mileage engines.

Seems to me that I was replacing a LOT of TIMING CHAINS and Nylon Upper Timing Gears and a metal lower gear on Firebirds, Tempests, Lemans, and GTOs, and Big Cars because they had engineering problems with Timing Chains and gears in the late 60s and early 70s.

So the Pontiac Boys better read up on their history before they throw rocks about suspect engineering. The EFI pump, especially when played with by a tuner, exerts a massive load on the timing chains and gears of the Ecoboost engines.

Tom V.

Not a big Ford fan, personally, which is why I am on a Pontiac site. However, I work on those 3.5L twin turbo ecoboost engines in Transit 350 vans all the time. They are damn tough engines IMO, lots of power, great economy, low oil consumption, and very trouble free. Better than an LS? I would just say different. I work on lots of 6.0L LS engines as well. Many with over 300K miles on them, leaking oil out of every pore, but running fine. I will say the packaging of the ecoboost engines in the Transit vans is absolutely horrible. Replaced a radiator in one last week. almost an 8 hour job. Ridiculous how that module is wedged in there.

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Did a basic search on the timing chain issues and some have 100K on their engines with no issues reported. Some other F-150 Forum guys have swapped FEAD parts on their engines as well as "played with things" and they have had timing chain issues on the 2011 to early 2014 engines.

Not saying that the Camshafts are not applying a massive load on the chains.
The Fuel Pump driven by the timing Chains/Camshaft applies a load on the timing chains.
And a lot of the engines repaired were high mileage engines.

Seems to me that I was replacing a LOT of TIMING CHAINS and Nylon Upper Timing Gears and a metal lower gear on Firebirds, Tempests, Lemans, and GTOs, and Big Cars because they had engineering problems with Timing Chains and gears in the late 60s and early 70s.

So the Pontiac Boys better read up on their history before they throw rocks about suspect engineering. The EFI pump, especially when played with by a tuner, exerts a massive load on the timing chains and gears of the Ecoboost engines.

Tom V.

Ray Charles could see that the GM Nylon cam gear/chains were garbage. They affected all divisions back then, not just Pontiac. They were an engineering disaster. The take away is pure planned obsolescence.

The EB stretched chains I referred to were in the earlier pre 2014 F150'S, ALL with under 30k miles. No mods OR tunes on any of them either.

[Cliff R]

"Ray Charles could see that the GM Nylon cam gear/chains were garbage. They affected all divisions back then, not just Pontiac. They were an engineering disaster. The take away is pure planned obsolescence."

In theory you get the best of the best with a nylon coated top sprocket and Morse chain set-up. They provide constant tooth contact, the strength of the Morse/link belt chain design, noise reduction, resist wear on the teeth, absorbs some harmonics and very smooth drive for the camshaft.

One of my mentors WAY back in the 1980's ran a very successful drag racing Class car and that's all he used on his engines. I even see him take the same set and move it from engine to engine. He said that it reduced "spark scatter", made more power and worth both ET and MPH compared to a roller style timing set.

Theory is fine and I'm sure the engineers meant well with those plastic coated top gear timing sets, however, like many other things that end up in and on these engines they were horrible in long term service. Thousand of heating/cooling cycles caused the plastic to get brittle and start cracking. Then the teeth would start to shred off the gear and end up in the bottom of the oil pan and oil pump pick-up screen. They would eventually fail without warning and leave you walking. It was a black eye for GM and they used them pretty much across the board until they had so many failures they went back to metal top gears again.

Tom has always said on here that "engineers do thing for a reason". I'm sure they meant well and saw benefits with the plastic top gear timing sets, however, as stated IF you look at that deal for a moment and think about one making it in long term service......pretty risky deal all the way around IMHO........Cliff

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

The EB stretched chains I referred to were in the earlier pre 2014 F150'S, ALL with under 30k miles. No mods OR tunes on any of them either.

Believe the issues were 2011 to early 2014.

Funny, that is not what the Boys on the F-150 board say.
But THIS thread is about the LS guys kicking the Pontiac Engine guys further into history. David Butler, from a hard core Pontiac Family background saw the light and is working with those guys as a smart businessman.

Tom V.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Tom, Ford did an impressive Stress eval on that V6. The thermal Cycling is rather severe stress (we do that on all High-Rel Spacecraft hardware & it shows in SV lifetimes). The teardown for visual inspection (probably micrometer measures too) is an excellent EOL test measure. You can be proud that a good engineering organization still exists.

BTW; i got permission (this week) to release the PMD Stratostreak 24 Hour Bonney Salt Flat Lifetest done by PMD Engineering, led by Windeler.

[Tom Vaught]

Thanks HIS.
I really wish I had asked Tom Nell, Herb Adams, or Dudley "Skip" McCully for a list like this one for the Pontiac Engineers: Rich Bronk would have been involved in the Stress Analysis

THE 1ST ECOBOOST TEAM

Name - Last Name - First Title/Function Phone CDS ID
Agathocleous Cindy ... PTSSE
Barylski Gary ... Technician
Berhan Mike ... Transmission
Bidner Dave ... Controls engineer
Bottenberg John ... Escape P/T Supv.
Brennan Paul ... Escape P/T Mgr
Briggs Mike ... Boosting TS
Bronk Rich ... CEFET
Castro Sal ... Controls Supr.
Cepeda Camilo ... Escape P/T
Chavdrasekhar N. ... Escape P/T
Cockerill Al ... Dyno/Dev Supr
Cooper Steve ... Controls engineer
Cross Dan ... Engine Design Senior
DeRaad Scott ... Transmission & Controls
DesErmia Meg ... PTSSE - P/T mounts
Esson Scott ... Escape P/T
Fascetti Bob ... Escape P/T Mgr
Ford Roy ... Taurus P/T Planning
Froling Jim ... Engine Systems Design
Ginder John ... Powder clutch
Goscinski George ... Trans Design
Hagner Dave ... Controls engineer
Hill Curt P/T ... Systems Supervisor
Jiang Hong ... Advance Trans Calibration
Kass Jeff ... Engine Design
Lee J. Terry ... P/T Controls
Mason Rich ... Transmission Designer
Nielsen John ... Trans Design
Pellerin Mark ... Cooling
Senek Gail ... CVSP
Shelby Mike ... Engine Development
Smith Rich ... CVSP
Talakanti Damodar ... Vehicle NVH
Tiburzi Harold ... Tech Support
Tomilson Don ... Driveline
Tripi John ... Taurus P/T PMT
Vaughn Tim ... Systems Integration & PM
Vaught Tom ... Boosting Senior Design Engr.
Vempati Ramu ... Controls engineer
Washko Frank ... P/T systems
Yousaf Muhammad ... P/T Systems
Yuen Lucy ... P/T NVH

Easy to see that a program involves a group of people with specific tasks that they
are responsible for. So it is a team effort to make things work.

I was one member of the team. Tom Nell was one member of the team (as was Herb Adams and Skip McCully. (At the time, Herb Adams was a Manager on a Team but a Performance Guy who refused to be told he could not race his private vehicle on a race course by GM management.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Looking forward to seeing the Pontiac Info, HIS.

Tom V.

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Believe the issues were 2011 to early 2014.

Funny, that is not what the Boys on the F-150 board say.
But THIS thread is about the LS guys kicking the Pontiac Engine guys further into history. David Butler, from a hard core Pontiac Family background saw the light and is working with those guys as a smart businessman.

Tom V.

Those that cannot adapt to change fall along the wayside. As you mentioned Tom, a smart businessman would have seen the writing in the wall many moons ago and scaled up the aspect that is growing as the others taper. I always enjoy reading your posts as you are good with your wording and cool experiences.

Like I mentioned before if you were planning on swapping to a 4l80e you Might as well kill two birds with one stone and go faster for less in the process. And I dont pop my hood for just anyone either

[Tom Vaught]

There are a few out there who wanted to provide a product for the Pontiac few:
The Butlers, the KRE guys, the All Pontiac Guys (Bob and Frank, The BOP Guys, Mark and Wade, The Rare Exhaust Guy, and myself, were invited to a meeting at a Track in Virginia to discuss how the group could keep the Pontiac engine alive for a few more years and represent the Pontiac Community and its suppliers at the PRI Shows in Orlando Florida.

The KRE Guys did not show.

So the above Group did the PRI Show in Florida for several years.

Bob and Frank and the Butlers did the Engine and Head stuff
The Rare Guy did the exhaust manifolds
Mark H and Wade C did the BOP Belt Drive and a bunch of other needed parts.
Butler worked out a deal to have Edelbrock supply E-Heads for Pontiacs as well as other needed parts like better intakes.

I offered to help the guys with Boost projects down the road. It took a while but at some point I got involved in helping Mark at Luhn Performance with his Boosted Engine projects and Dyno Tests. Mark and I helped Brian H with his project for several years.
The Vortech Guys helped with superchargers and actually had a Pontiac GTO kit listed in their Catalog at one time (engineered by them). Mark H at Luhn Performance later took over that work: designing parts, making parts (like his modded oil pumps), doing dyno tests, etc.

So years later, many years later, a PY member named Justin S talked to the Butlers and Travis Quillen about doing Twin Turbos on his vehicle because he had an idea to sell a car show concept to the Discovery Channel. Rodney Butler had been running his Twin Turbo GTO and later 63 Tempest on the track. The Butlers/ Travis Q were contracted to help him on his project.

So don't ever bad-mouth the Butlers for adding to their Pontiac program with a LS vehicle program for later Pontiacs.

I was working for my employer and therefore never took any cash but offered a lot of free advice on boosting over the years to PY members. Same deal with the Holley carb stuff. The name of the original organization we formed, if I remember right was the TEEPEE group. Forget what it means, ask Bob and Frank.

So my suggestion is Get off your Easy Chair, and contribute like The Butlers, Travis Q, the RARE Guy, the BOP Guys, Mark at Luhn Performance, Don with his parts, Larry W, and others have done for many years. No criticism for the guys who are in it just for the money though, that is their deal. Even Chief and the Racers out there are in it for the money.

Tom V.

[68lemans462]

LS swaps are lame. the only LS I'll have is the one in my YUKON

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

But THIS thread is about the LS guys kicking the Pontiac Engine guys further into history.

Wrong. This thread is all over the map, but it's about leveling the playing field.
In simple terms, that means improving the Pontiac engine.