#261  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Cliff R View Post
"I wasn't the least bit impressed with the 6.0 HD set-up anyplace. "

Which is it?"

I don't know anyone in these parts that likes the older 6.0's, gas guzzlers and low on power (torque) so they have to spin 5000rpm's every time you come to a decent grade if you have much in tow behind it.

I've not run into anyone to date in these parts that likes the older 6.0's. They all say the same thing, gas guzzlers and low on power (torque).

Different story with the new stuff, so GM has obviously made some changes for the better in the last couple of years. I haven't had the opportunity to drive a 2018 or newer 2500 with the big LS engine but hearing lots of good things about them. This thread is basically about LS engines so just pointing out my experience with them, which is limited to only driving one older 6.0 and my 2018 5.3.

Most of my experience with trucks is diesels and I've owned just about all the "good ones" made prior to 2008. I'm with old-pinion-head on that deal, give me a 12 valve 5.9 Cummins in a HD older Dodge, manual transmission and Dana 80 rear. I had one and still regret selling it......Cliff
The gas mileage is bad. I'll give you that. I drive 80ish everywhere though. But it makes plenty of power for average duty. I'm used to powerful vehicles in everything I've ever owned. For a 2004 I'd say it's great. 147,000. Doesn't use a drop of oil between changes. Runs like a top and has never had an engine repair. I did do the transfer case saver mod. 6.0l, 4L80E, and Dana 60 are all bullet proof. Anyone that bitches about that combo is not likely to be happy with anything.

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  #262  
Old 01-01-2020, 10:07 AM
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I think they have to! if you are pulling a big load with a 360 inch naturally aspirated engine, mechanical advantage is your only hope and the only way to get mechanical advantage is to increase the engine speed.

!
And that's the key right there and why the 6.0's, like my fathers truck, does what it does. If you tried to force that thing to hold a higher gear to lug the engine, you would be lucky to be crawling 20 mph by the time you reached the top of some the mountains around here, and that would be dangerous. They don't make enough grunt in those low rpm ranges to do that successfully. It's only 364 cubic inches.

On very very mild grades you get away with 3rd or 4th gear and maybe 3500 rpm at 60-ish mph. But once you hit the mountain grades out here, watch that thing drop to second and scream to 5,000 rpm to maintain maybe 50 mph, and do it for several minutes at a time.

Anyone that tows with these things in any type of mountain terrain knows what I'm talking about.

I will say, since I've been around LS engines for years and built/daily drove many of them, that I've never seen or had one throw a rod or even spin a bearing in N/A form. I've done cam swaps in them, headers and other mods, with the stock 100k mile short blocks and then continue to put another 100k on them, shifting at 6700 rpm and daily driving them, without a hint of oil usage let alone any other mechanical problems. They are a pretty solid foundation. But that still doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling when towing a load and holding 5,000 rpm for miles at a time. I've been impressed that the thing never overheats like that either, and it gets pretty damn hot here in Arizona.


Last edited by Formulajones; 01-01-2020 at 10:14 AM.
  #263  
Old 01-01-2020, 10:13 AM
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I have a Pontiac motor in my 79 Camaro and the engine covers say GTO

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  #264  
Old 01-01-2020, 10:20 AM
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Friend of mine that lives in Florida this time of year was just visiting Ohio for the summer, and he tows his classic car back and forth. Used a GM truck for years but decided while he was in Ohio to trade his GM in on a Ford ecoboost truck. Only because the GM dealer didn't have exactly what he wanted.

He just made the trip back to Florida last week. He's already regretting the purchase. Didn't even make it out of West Virginia and the truck overheated and broke down. Blew all the coolant out of it. BRAND NEW ECO-BOOST. Had to leave his trailer and classic car at a rest stop and have the truck towed to a dealer for repair.
Made the rest of the trip uneventful, luckily no one bothered his classic while it sat at the rest area. But he's already thinking about trading that one back off for a GM replacement, LOL.

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Old 01-01-2020, 10:28 AM
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That and lifting your nose as LS swaps is very childish behavior.
I hope that wasn't directed at me. I recognize the LS for what it is, it's hot rodding. The typical
LS swap is usually poorly executed and ends up somewhere between two different worlds. But
a well built example can bridge that gap.

People who require acceptance simply don't have a grasp on their situation. B-man certainly
isn't apologizing or making excuses. The guy who built Mutant II wasn't worried about ruffled
feathers either.

  #266  
Old 01-01-2020, 10:32 AM
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Some people will complain if their hands are sore from catching diamonds!

  #267  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by hgerhardt View Post
3.5L is only 213 cid. And 213 cid * 4HP is 852. But, Palbykin's drag race engine would most likely not have survived LeMans!
IF I COULD JUST LEARN HOW TO TYPE AND PROOF READ THINGS WOULD BE GREAT. No excuse for that deal. Not blaming the spirits I was consuming at all. "Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

(;>)

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  #268  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 77 Canamman View Post
You couldn't give me an Egoboost. I have a few personal experiences with them, and they are not flattering. Two of them had stretched timing chains, and the other had terrible smoking issues related to the turbo seals and intercooler-all under 30k miles. When they are new and under warranty, they might be ok, and produce good power, but they are not for me.

As much as the 6.0 Vortec has been derided here, they are a better performer than the 6.4 Hemi. Now that's a flaming turd of an engine.

My 2017 5.3 L83 LT1 series GEN V/6L80 has been stellar in both power and economy. I have performed a tune, upgraded the exhaust and intake systems, and added the 6.2 intake and TB. Nothing like 23-24 MPG's on a trip at 75-80 mph, and low 14 sec quarter mile times in a close to 6000 pound truck. Towing the Bandit nets 13 MPG on the road. I like the 6.2, but the 8 speed tranny is not as refined as the 6, and you can't tune that trans. With that said, I would NEVER put it in a vintage Pontiac.
Interesting since the 4 cylinder engines and V6 engines in production typically have a internal chain tensioner that would take out any wear in the chain.

Also a smoking issue from turbo seal issues is caused by excessive crankcase pressures, or poor crankcase venting. The turbo needs a very low pressure in the oil pan to drain the CHRA properly.

Tom V.

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  #269  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:12 PM
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My father has a 2.7 Ecoboost that blew up at less than 20k miles of light duty. But that is just a single data point and it would be unreasonable to make broader inferences. If there had been an Ecoboost F150 with the heavy payload package or a Super Duty gasser in town for about the same price as my 6.0 2500HD, I would have had a really tough choice to make. But I specifically wanted a base model crew cab standard bed with a rear locker, the Chevy dealer had one at 20% off MSRP, so I pulled the trigger.

I suspect I will be getting ****ty gas mileage and towing at unreasonable engine speeds for a long, long time before my 6.0 engine gives up. At that point, I will start a thread about how to convert a 2016 2500HD over to a Pontiac stroker. Probably have to move to Haiti or something to get away with that ...

  #270  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:20 PM
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Disclaimer: What I'm about to type up is from a place of ignorance, so please excuse anything that's off the wall or pushing long debunked myths about Pontiacs. I just have questions.

One of the complaints I used to remember hearing about Pontiacs were that they were "slow revving engines". I haven't seen it bandied up in years, but I'm only getting back into cars after a decade or more long hiatus, and I've never been more than a backyard tuner on my own stuff. I'd assume that it's because of the low-rpm/high torque (especially from the 455's) nature of Pontiacs. Engineers were moving heavy cars at low RPMs, the party was usually over at 5000-5200RPM. But that seems like what they were designed for, low end high torque with a long low power band.

Contrast this to the LS engines. Now I have no personal experience with them. At most, I've only seen them on motor trend or youtube. But something that stands out to me is how quickly they seem to 'wrap-up'. I assume this is because the LS's powerband is much higher and it's a byproduct of that same consideration of design? Or am I just hearing things in relation to the engines I'm used to? They are what I assume are usually crate motors on these shows so they must be tuned. Other posters seem to confirm the powerband question with towing at 5 grand and being able to spin the motors up to 6700 RPM.

I'd also assume the LS has a lighter rotating assembly? I know the gearing in both the overdrive transmissions and the rear end is going to make a difference. But would lighter pistons/rods/crank and maybe balancing have anything to do with how they act and how quickly they end up in their strongest power band?

It seems to me that while the Pontiacs are a good base, it's hard to keep up with the march of 40+ years of engine design and engineering. It would be interesting to see what Pontiac engineers could have done with MPFI, long tuned intake runners, knock sensors, aluminium blocks and heads, hydraulic roller cams and the like that seem to be a staple of design today.

  #271  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Friend of mine that lives in Florida this time of year was just visiting Ohio for the summer, and he tows his classic car back and forth. Used a GM truck for years but decided while he was in Ohio to trade his GM in on a Ford ecoboost truck. Only because the GM dealer didn't have exactly what he wanted.

He just made the trip back to Florida last week. He's already regretting the purchase. Didn't even make it out of West Virginia and the truck overheated and broke down. Blew all the coolant out of it. BRAND NEW ECO-BOOST. Had to leave his trailer and classic car at a rest stop and have the truck towed to a dealer for repair.
Made the rest of the trip uneventful, luckily no one bothered his classic while it sat at the rest area. But he's already thinking about trading that one back off for a GM replacement, LOL.
I have driven 3 year lease ECOBOOST vehicles for the last 6 years and outside of oil changes have had no issues. My wife has a ECOBOOST Escape and the only issue we had there was the Chinese Lug Nuts that are two piece and not under warranty that were found to be defective on the caps under brake inspections. $165 for 10 lug nuts. So Ford is not perfect and I have had some problems too. There is a class action lawsuit out there on the lugnuts.

Tom V.

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  #272  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by i82much View Post
My father has a 2.7 Ecoboost that blew up at less than 20k miles of light duty. But that is just a single data point and it would be unreasonable to make broader inferences. If there had been an Ecoboost F150 with the heavy payload package or a Super Duty gasser in town for about the same price as my 6.0 2500HD, I would have had a really tough choice to make. But I specifically wanted a base model crew cab standard bed with a rear locker, the Chevy dealer had one at 20% off MSRP, so I pulled the trigger.

I suspect I will be getting ****ty gas mileage and towing at unreasonable engine speeds for a long, long time before my 6.0 engine gives up. At that point, I will start a thread about how to convert a 2016 2500HD over to a Pontiac stroker. Probably have to move to Haiti or something to get away with that ...
I'm sure that truck will treat you just fine. The high rpm hill climbs while towing can be a little unnerving but overall they are pretty good trucks and drive pretty nice.
I only went with a duramax for a few reasons. I already had a beautiful 79 1 ton 454/400 turbo that I towed with for more than 20 years and was happy. Best damn truck I ever had. But the single cab with a growing family started to raise concerns, plus my parents moving out and ride sharing, 5 of us wouldn't work. I couldn't find a suitable 70's crew cab with a BBC so I started looking at newer trucks. Neighbor already had a duramax and borrowed my 28' enclosed trailer one day, I rode along. I was hooked at that point as that thing yanked my trailer around like it wasn't even there.
So a crew cab duramax is what I ended up with. It's now 15 years old and paid for. It can haul 5 people comfortably and tows like nothing else. I just hope it lasts me the rest of my life because I don't want to spend $70k on a new one LOL

  #273  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
I have driven 3 year lease ECOBOOST vehicles for the last 6 years and outside of oil changes have had no issues. My wife has a ECOBOOST Escape and the only issue we had there was the Chinese Lug Nuts that are two piece and not under warranty that were found to be defective on the caps under brake inspections. $165 for 10 lug nuts. So Ford is not perfect and I have had some problems too. There is a class action lawsuit out there on the lugnuts.

Tom V.
I called that F-150 an eco-boost but that terminology may not be correct, so correct me if this is wrong. But it's one of those V6 twin turbo Ford trucks that he just bought. For what ever reason I view the ecoboost as the 4 banger stuff in economy cars.
He thought that maybe he cooked the engine but the dealer was able to repair and get him back on the road. I think that was the nail in the coffin for him though, being brand spanking new and already a major repair.

  #274  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:41 PM
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Back on Pontiac Engines again. Pontiac engines with boost can make the same power or more than say the Old Ford 302/347/351W which for years dominated the Power Adder classes in the NMCA, etc drag racing events. They have more cid and less need for high rpm. 95% of the Pontiac guys would be happy with a solid 8 second car that would be easy on boost and on rebuilds. Pro Bird comes to mind. Problem is you need the KRE or All Pontiac type blocks to run there consistently. Not so much the heads as Chief proved that deal many times.

Tom V.

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  #275  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by autobahn View Post
I have a Pontiac motor in my 79 Camaro and the engine covers say GTO
I do too but the block is an IAII

I can say the 6.2 gas in my 2015 1/4 ton Chevy gets better gas mileage than my 2004 GTO LS except when towing. Then towing a 18' trailer with my 3700lb TA to Camaro gets about 14 mpg and has plenty of power to pull it-for sure compared to the old 350 Vortec in my '97.

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Last edited by Skip Fix; 01-01-2020 at 01:19 PM.
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  #276  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
I'm just saying that due to Pontiac blocks being 'older', doesn't mean that they are less usable, specifically from age. I'm not quite sure what the 'standard' iron LS blocks will take power-wise, but will say they are not all created equal. I think the 5.3s are around the 800hp mark just like Pontiacs, but again, not sure.

Cast pistons are in I think all of them, and are somewhat limited to like 6000 RPM. Let me look that up, but pretty sure that's the case...

Yes:

http://blog.jepistons.com/everything...-engine-family

Only the blown LS's have forged cranks & rods. Parts do not interchange between all series, and some have unique parts that are not cheap, especially if you want performance stuff.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be anti-LS, all I'm saying is it isn't as easy as everyone thinks. If you pull a truck engine out of the yards, you're getting a truck engine. It's fine for some apps, but it's not like all LS's are 'performance' engines. You can push them, but that will limit their' life span. Shoot, there's guys here that are pushing factory blocks just as much or more, past 1000hp, and they're 'getting away with it', but everything is finite.

I know people that are blowing LS's up. I know people that have late model performance cars, and they hit a wall around 650 or so, and if you go beyond that, you blow them up. Or you have to upgrade parts, and then it gets expensive. I know guys that are doing swaps and are blowing them up. They think like many here that you can just go to the yards and grab an LS and make big power. It's not like that. That's all I'm trying to say. And if you want a true performance build, you have to pay for it.

I know a lot of people that are having issues with lifter tick too. Look at the vette forums, so they are having the same issues we are. Just do a search for 'corvette lifter tick' and you will see. It's not just a here-there thing either.

If you want 350-450hp, a cruiser, fine, that would work for a budget swap, but you will eventually get tired of it. Look at all the people here who have 400-450, they all want more.

.
I have 350P in my 68 Tempest wagon that I bought rebuilt for a deal. It is a stock 71 block with 46 heads and probably 7.5:1 or something. Runs fine but is thirsty and is only goof for cruising. It is a place holder for a 4.8 and overdrive that i'm going to put in for a little more power and a lot more economy. If I get greedy I can easily upgrade the LS platform. My intent is to treat this car like it was Yukon or minivan. turn the key and go for 300K miles. Keeping the numbers matching 455's and 400's are great for cars that are babied and collected. I'm building a driver. (BTW my 350 will at some point be available for your turbo idea) Too sum up do what ever floats your boat and don't be dick to those who deviate from your opinions.

  #277  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
I'm sure that truck will treat you just fine. The high rpm hill climbs while towing can be a little unnerving but overall they are pretty good trucks and drive pretty nice.
I only went with a duramax for a few reasons. I already had a beautiful 79 1 ton 454/400 turbo that I towed with for more than 20 years and was happy. Best damn truck I ever had. But the single cab with a growing family started to raise concerns, plus my parents moving out and ride sharing, 5 of us wouldn't work. I couldn't find a suitable 70's crew cab with a BBC so I started looking at newer trucks. Neighbor already had a duramax and borrowed my 28' enclosed trailer one day, I rode along. I was hooked at that point as that thing yanked my trailer around like it wasn't even there.
So a crew cab duramax is what I ended up with. It's now 15 years old and paid for. It can haul 5 people comfortably and tows like nothing else. I just hope it lasts me the rest of my life because I don't want to spend $70k on a new one LOL
Exactly. Whether you are looking at a Pontiac vs. LS engine for your classic Pontiac, a diesel vs. gas for your HD truck, new vs. used car, it always comes down to two questions - what are you trying to accomplish and how does it pencil out financially?

So for instance I figure I'll get a travel trailer around 6k lbs and tow it for the most part on country roads with a 55 mph speed limit - no steep interstate climbs for me. A gas HD truck makes perfect sense. You add some steep climbs on interstates with a 70 mph limit or change it to a 10k trailer, probably going to be unhappy right?

Same deal with a Pontiac vs. LS engine. You want to run 12's or high 11's, 500 horsepower, no problem with a Pontiac. But if you are going to hand-calculate your gas mileage every tank and grumble about how an LS engine could have gotten a few more mpg than your Pontiac stroker, then maybe you should be in the junkyard looking for an LS swap.

  #278  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Interesting since the 4 cylinder engines and V6 engines in production typically have a internal chain tensioner that would take out any wear in the chain.

Also a smoking issue from turbo seal issues is caused by excessive crankcase pressures, or poor crankcase venting. The turbo needs a very low pressure in the oil pan to drain the CHRA properly.

Tom V.
There are several TSB's associated with stretched timing chains on the 3.5 EB.

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  #279  
Old 01-01-2020, 02:18 PM
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I guess this is a moot point for me. I have a 98 Trans Am convertible with the LS-1 motor, and a 69 Bird with the 400 Pontiac. I like what each brings to the table but the 69 gets a lot more smiles per mile than the 98 does, although it gets a fair share.

  #280  
Old 01-01-2020, 02:20 PM
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Sometimes I think old cars are too much work. I am going to sell my 65 GTO, get a brand new Corvette convertible (red, of course), some leather driving gloves, hair plugs, a spray tan, and a 22 year old girlfriend with fake boobs.

See ya fellas. Wish me luck!

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