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  #21  
Old 09-20-2021, 01:29 AM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Stayed out really late tonight with friends and just got in.
HRFBoy has emailed me copies of his documents and so i wanted to go ahead and get them posted here before hitting the sack.
Haven't looked them over close yet, will wait until after the morning.



Quote:
I read somewhere in this forum that 991 is code for new cars and 992 is code for used cars
Not doubting that might have been posted somewhere on here, but it won't hold up against a test group of similar examples.

Throughout different times over the past 15 years or so , i think a lot of different ideas have been presented about 991 992 993 , think i might even have a 994 on file somewhere.

The best definition seems to be they were different areas/locations within the same zone region - as far as the various Numbered Zones - other than PMD's Zone 35.
All of their 35-99x codes were within the MotherLand.

And even that 991-2-3 definition might not be 100% accurate

Thank You and we really appreciate you sharing the information and letting us know about your 50-00x GTO Convertible.









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  #22  
Old 09-20-2021, 07:57 AM
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Thanks for the docs!

Too bad the rest of the buildsheet isn't there. The part missing may have had the 'use' or 'owner' on it?

The State Code only shows 'From' which is California (Fremont).
At that time of the BHC, they didn't know where it was going to?
(other than the Zone storage)

Also added the Dealer Zone data. This car has 50 001 which has a different name but same address as one I already had.


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  #23  
Old 09-20-2021, 03:00 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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In 67 , PMD may have been leasing the "Continental Whs." facility.
Then by Jan 1969 (69 Pattern Judge document) they had purchased the property.
maybe

The 69 and 70 Judge docs both use that same address as yours,
but its title is Pontiac Motor Division in both the Charge To & Ship To boxes on their Buildsheets.

The only "revealing" thing i can notice so far is the Invoice Number Prefix.
It looks like an "I" (eye)
Have never seen that used before that i can recall, but will keep it in mind.
untypical to an extreme, imo

No Discount Code at all.
Even if the car just sat still for 6 months, it would have gotten discounted for being last years model by Dec 1967.

There was also another standardized additional discount (above/beyond discount for 3month/3000miles use) if a car was kept in use/after use under PMD umbrella for over 6 months.
So - whether it was this reason or that reason for the 6 months - at least one of those would have been in play at a minimum.

The "gifting" idea would be nearly impossible to ever prove out today.
But it would be a neat novelty.
Uncharted territory in every way.

In general - i see it as fully untypical overall .
The 50-00x designator is the big missing link to all of that.
Only 5 other 50-00x cars known to us (or known to Johnta1/WallaceRacing.com)
He has 2 newer additions to that list that i don't know anything about at all.
Yours is the only BHC era document with 50-00x
It was a very seldom used designator.
And the "I" invoice prefix is obscure, to me.

Have a small collection of mystery billing documents that won't bottom out.
Yours is one of those now.

  #24  
Old 09-20-2021, 03:16 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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... and your GTO looks damn good !
I like the early cars to be crouched low
wanna sell it ? at a discount !

Thank you again for sharing your GTO and its docs with us.
mysteriously unique

  #25  
Old 09-20-2021, 07:53 PM
John V. John V. is offline
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The 329 Van Norman ship to I believe was common for hundreds and hundreds of Fremont builds being shipped by rail to the Los Angeles Zone.

Pretty sure I researched this facility in a thread a long time ago.

I believe it has been a rail yard for many decades. Pretty sure it receives new cars for distribution to area dealers even today. I do not think PMD ever owned any part of this yard, I am all but certain they simply leased space as needed. And once unloaded from the rail car and placed into the possession of the warehouse, likely loaded onto transporters for local delivery to a dealership. Possible the Zone could take delivery of Company Cars at the yard, but more likely they would have arranged to have it delivered to a dealership where the Zone took delivery and the Dealer got paid a nominal amount for the new car prep.

Looking at the original remnant of the build sheet, I believe there is no doubt that this GTO was ordered by the LA Zone and most likely was for use as a Company Car by a staff employee of that Zone. The ship to Van Norman Rd. address is not unusual as explained above.

The PHS record shows the Zone selling it in Dec '67.

At that point, it is very doubtful that this GTO was returned to the warehouse location. The identity of 24-991 did not change in this respect, on both Docs it refers to the office location of the Zone.

In the original instance, the car was charged to the Zone, meaning it was now on their books, not the PMD Corp office. In the PHS record, it means the Zone was selling it meaning it was being removed from their books and it "existed" in their possession regardless of where it was parked at the moment it was sold.

Usually, the Zone would sell it to the high bidding dealership within the Zone but in this case, the 50-002 indicates a more unusual transfer of ownership from the Zone to whoever 50-002 represents.

BVZ, your idea that the guy who originally had use of it as a Company Car could have been the eventual purchaser makes sense to me. My dad's and my own experience with Company Cars suggests that the employee invariably had first dibs if he wanted to buy it.

I don't have first hand knowledge for how long a Zone employee would use a Company Car. But in the late '70s, my dad had Delco Remy as his only account (they were that big as a customer) and called on engineers at their facility in Anderson, IN. At that time, my dad explained to me what one of them told him. Employees were making money by buying a car like a Corvette at a discount. They could not resell it for a certain period of time. My recollection is that they had to hold it for 6 months before they could sell it. At that point, they could sell it for more than they had paid for it because of the generous employee discount.

Maybe Keith knows how that deal worked in the '70s. My dad had talked to one of the engineers about it as he knew I might be interested in obtaining a Corvette on a bargain deal. I never pursued it but always remembered the story.

Don't know how this might relate to the sale of this GTO, just suggesting that the 6 month time frame might not be strange at all.

I also strongly agree that the Invoice No. does help point in a direction.

The "I" Sales Class is unusual, I haven't come across it before AFAIK. If somebody could discover what this Sales Class represents, you likely would have a very strong clue as to who was buying the car in Dec. '67.

The original Sales Class was "J" on the remnant, that was used pretty commonly.

The Sales Classes determined how the car was being accounted for as far as Invoice purposes were concerned and the classes were defined as:

A for GMAC wholesale credit
B for Other Dealer Credit (like a bank line of credit)
C for Cash
J for Zone Stock

Since the Dec sale includes an Invoice No., no doubt in my mind that money was actually changing hands.

I can't explain why no Discount amount is coded. Might indicate the car was unused, still new. But by Dec., you'd normally expect a Disc even on an unused Zone inventory car just because it was now more than a full Model Year old.

I'll also point to the $38 Misc. Amount. From what I've seen (not '67 records), it was common for PMD to recover the cost of things like Title & Tag fees and Accessories that might have been added to the Company Car prior to its eventual sale. Pretty sure the Misc. Amount on this Billing record points to those things. A new car would not have had any Misc. items to recover cost for so suggests it did have usage prior to the sale.

All speculation of course. I'd love to learn if more is ever discovered.

BVZ, what about the "STATE CD" coding on the Billing History?

  #26  
Old 09-20-2021, 09:42 PM
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Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
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The 6 month interval was common, as was the ability to get more than one company car/truck as Keith S has posted in the past.

Even today, I can get several cars/trucks thru my former company's Retired Employees vehicle program every 3 years.
We used to call the New Vehicles "A-Plan" vehicles and used company cars and trucks "B-Plan" vehicles.
I sent several B-Plan Ranger & F-Series Trucks to BAJA 1000 Racers over the years. Those B-Plan vehicles had 4,000 miles on them
and were used to EPA certify the vehicle lines.
The companies always want to sell vehicles even at a reduced cost.

Tom V.


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  #27  
Old 09-21-2021, 07:43 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Quote:
BVZ, what about the "STATE CD" coding on the Billing History?
I took it as possibly that particular key-puncher was using the "same as" rule.
Like they do on some other things ... sometimes
Such as Dataways Charge To - Ship To boxes being "same as" .
Or maybe just an oversight / clerical error.

However , not sure i have another example of seeing that done in the State Boxes.
Too many to look through and that isn't something that would stick with me to recall off the shoulder.
For now just taking that as minor, but maybe it could tie into the outcome somehow.



Here are the PMD Sales Class Codes i have record on :

A was GMAC financing
B was dealers Bank
C was Cash
J was Zone Stock / Inventory
K was GM Overseas / Export
L was GM of Canada
N was Pontiac Retail Store
S was Fleet / Manufacturer
V was PMD Internal
Y was Zone Internal
and have examples of all of those

Have never ever come across an "I" , and that is the type of thing i would remember for sure.
Would not take anything off the table concerning this car , as far as the conditions under which the car was received , or by whom.


For casual readers -
50-00x is an unusual gig in comparison to the large pool of samples we have.
We only have 5 others on record so far.
The 3 i have files on are all "C" Cash classings.

Combine 50-00x with this obscure "I" classing , and this is out of our reach.
Double non-ordinary (not the car - just its early foot prints)

Have a pretty sizeable collection of PMD/Zone use car billings.
Always on the look out for them.
They did have a 3month/3000mile whichever came first standard to follow on the cars issued for vested employees to use for personal transportation.
I imagine to keep depreciation at minimums.
Cars of other uses or actual assignments/duties had more leniency.
Some cars pulled double duties back to back.
and ... some cars just take longer than others to find their taker.

On the Easy-to-Read Invoices , they will Memo "Over 6 Months" if the car was in actual use under the umbrella for over 6 months.
So that was a "thing".

If we take for granted this car was issued for a vested employee to use as personal transportation - he may have had enough clout to purposely keep the car 6 months to purposely trip that next/stacked depreciation on the car for "over 6 months".
1 of 100 other possibilities

  #28  
Old 09-21-2021, 08:38 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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HotRodFarmBoy , if you feel inclined sometime - try removing your sunvisors and rear view mirror and have a peek (maybe even a bore-scope) all around inside there for another Buildsheet.

A PY member recovered this one from a 67 GTO Fremont built car in a junkyard in California - while getting the sunvisors from the car.
He saw a corner, and fished out a complete legible folded Buildsheet !

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  #29  
Old 09-21-2021, 09:18 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Throwing this out here for others to enjoy the knowledge of its existence.
This is a Dealer Invoice for a 1966 (tiger gold) GTO
From the same source as the 67 Buildsheet i just posted.

So we have document/evidence there were Dealer Invoices prior to 1969.
And we have document/evidence there were BHC's at least up until 1970.
Exactly how long those 2 forms co-existed simultaneously , i do not know.
But at least from 1966 - 1970 minimum.
I would imagine even longer in one - or both - directions.

We have always been told that not ALL forms of ALL documents were recovered / survived / or on hand at PHS.
Can guarantee JM would rather just send these out click-click for 1966-67-68 cars versus the extra efforts involved sending the BHC's.
If they had them in the PHS archives.
Obviously , i would say they do not.

Think how great (beyond the Incredibly Great of what we DO get) it would be to have both forms of document on each car from 66-70 !
it ain't happening - but WOW



Last edited by Baron Von Zeppelin; 09-21-2021 at 09:43 PM.
  #30  
Old 09-21-2021, 10:14 PM
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Whatever is still out there was saved by Jim M.
I believe GM took him to court on the dumpster diving he did.

Tom V.

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  #31  
Old 09-21-2021, 10:36 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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GM took him to court - to get what was given to him - away from him !
Our whole PHS data base.
Lets not go there.

The 1966 Dealer Invoice is for educational reference, to all.
I doubt many - if any - have ever seen one before.

  #32  
Old 09-22-2021, 05:12 PM
Hotrodfarmboy Hotrodfarmboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin View Post
... and your GTO looks damn good !
I like the early cars to be crouched low
wanna sell it ? at a discount !

Thank you again for sharing your GTO and its docs with us.
mysteriously unique
Thanks for the tip about the sunvisors, I'll check that out. As I said in my initial post I knew this was a special car but the info presented here has exceeded my expectations. I want to thank you guys for this info! I assume you were joking when you said "wanna sell it" I really have no intention of selling but.........if your wallet is so thick that you can't sit down...........

  #33  
Old 09-24-2021, 02:40 PM
Hotrodfarmboy Hotrodfarmboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin View Post
HotRodFarmBoy , if you feel inclined sometime - try removing your sunvisors and rear view mirror and have a peek (maybe even a bore-scope) all around inside there for another Buildsheet.

A PY member recovered this one from a 67 GTO Fremont built car in a junkyard in California - while getting the sunvisors from the car.
He saw a corner, and fished out a complete legible folded Buildsheet !

I pulled my visors and mirror yesterday.....nothing there but dust and a few insect carcasses............oh well!

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