#1  
Old 05-16-2019, 03:24 PM
JS77 JS77 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 25
Default Clutch help

I need some help getting my clutch set up. This is what I have going on right now. Hays 10-130 flywheel, CF DF 11” with N1716 throw out bearing, stock bellhousing, stock fork and clutch linkage. I started by pulling the fork towards the rear of the car until the bearing touches the PP fingers. Screw out the adjustment rod until it sits in the fork pocket. Then back it off 3 turns to achieve a 1/4 gap. When the clutch is pressed in, nothing happens. The clutch disc doesn’t move off the flywheel. If I thread the rod out until the TB touches the PP and then press the clutch in the disc barely moves. Doesn’t come off flywheel at all. If I start the car in gear, the wheels will move with the clutch pressed in. Before I start shotgunning parts at this some advice would be greatly appreciated. I’m going to pull everything off and start over. I didn’t measure the flywheel height but thinking I may need an adjustable pivot ball.

  #2  
Old 05-16-2019, 03:47 PM
stags's Avatar
stags stags is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bedminster, Pa.
Posts: 780
Default

Not an expert by any means but based on my one experience adjustable pivot ball is exactly what you need. Had same equipment on my '69 GTO - got it to work but clutch would always grab when it got hot and grind reverse and 1st. If you still have an original flywheel suggest you measure it then measure the Hays - adjust the pivot ball to make up the difference and work from there. When the geometry is off it can't be adjusted properly. Hays is thinner so longer pivot length is needed IIRC. Good luck, Mark O.

__________________
Ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was.
  #3  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:03 PM
johnta1's Avatar
johnta1 johnta1 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: now sunny Florida!
Posts: 21,237
Default

1st make sure the pedal is all the way up against the stop on the inside.
(like when released)

Adjust the rod for zero clearance.
(all slack taken up)

Then see if it works.

If not, inside where the pedal stop on bracket is, see if there is a rubber bumper.
Take that out and adjust the rod again.

It will hopefully work now.


__________________
John Wallace - johnta1
Pontiac Power RULES !!!
www.wallaceracing.com

Winner of Top Class at Pontiac Nationals, 2004 Cordova
Winner of Quick 16 At Ames 2004 Pontiac Tripower Nats

KRE's MR-1 - 1st 5 second Pontiac block ever!


"Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts."

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." – Socrates
  #4  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:06 PM
tom s tom s is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,764
Default

Any chance the disk is in backwards?Tom

  #5  
Old 05-16-2019, 06:55 PM
Stan Weiss's Avatar
Stan Weiss Stan Weiss is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,000
Default

One check the clutch disc thickness.
Two check the finger height setting with the pressure plate flat on a work bench.

An in car method to see if the clutch disc is to thick is the problem is be to put washers between the pressure plate and flywheel and have each bolt go thru the washer.

Stan

__________________
Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php
Pontiac Pump Gas List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm
Using PMD Block and Heads List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm
  #6  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:01 PM
JS77 JS77 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 25
Default

Tried taking all the slack out but still doesn’t move clutch disc much. TB has to be away from the fingers because of the weights.
CF DF disc has a gold film on flywheel side and I can see it. 99.99% it’s on the right way.
Hays is thinner and I messed up not thinking about it. Have to pull it all out to measure.
Any recommendations on an adjustable pivot ball? Can you adjust it with everything set up in the cat?

  #7  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:57 PM
johnta1's Avatar
johnta1 johnta1 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: now sunny Florida!
Posts: 21,237
Default

What kind of car is this?



__________________
John Wallace - johnta1
Pontiac Power RULES !!!
www.wallaceracing.com

Winner of Top Class at Pontiac Nationals, 2004 Cordova
Winner of Quick 16 At Ames 2004 Pontiac Tripower Nats

KRE's MR-1 - 1st 5 second Pontiac block ever!


"Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts."

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." – Socrates
  #8  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:28 PM
JS77 JS77 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 25
Default

69 GTO

  #9  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:51 PM
gtospieg gtospieg is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,225
Default

maybe a taller Throwout bearing can help

  #10  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:04 PM
Scott Thelander's Avatar
Scott Thelander Scott Thelander is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lacey WA
Posts: 1,558
Default

wrong throw out bearing
fork came off the crotch of the bearing on tranny install
re welded z bar .... the old weld up the tube repair
tired sloppy z bar
worn throw out arm pivot .. wrong pivot ... aftermarket pivot not adjusted correctly
wrong throw out arm/fork
wrong adjuster rod <<<<<<< not adjusted correctly ?
not a pontiac clutch pedal or push rod
bent frame mount for the bellcrank
them aftermarket forks they used to sell like to hit the rear of the bellhoung hole and bottom out
Pontiacs really like oem PONTIAC throw out forks for propper geometry
just a couple things come to mind

  #11  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:47 PM
JS77 JS77 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 25
Default

TB is one that came with kit
I can look up and see TB on the fork. Appears to be in place. It travels smooth.
Pedal assembly, clutch rod,, z bar, fork, adjustment rod all new from Ames
The pedal runs out of travel before it actually does anything.

  #12  
Old 05-17-2019, 06:58 AM
johnta1's Avatar
johnta1 johnta1 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: now sunny Florida!
Posts: 21,237
Default

As Scott said, the tolerances may be wrong if anything is worn or changed.

My suggestion gives about 1/8" to 3/16" (?) of additional travel.
That would be enough to make it work.
(done it many times)
Takes about 2 seconds to take out.

A pic of the A-body linkage and the bumper:




Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	69-abody-clutch-pedal.JPG
Views:	1747
Size:	127.4 KB
ID:	512406  

__________________
John Wallace - johnta1
Pontiac Power RULES !!!
www.wallaceracing.com

Winner of Top Class at Pontiac Nationals, 2004 Cordova
Winner of Quick 16 At Ames 2004 Pontiac Tripower Nats

KRE's MR-1 - 1st 5 second Pontiac block ever!


"Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts."

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." – Socrates
  #13  
Old 05-17-2019, 07:43 AM
AG's Avatar
AG AG is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: NH
Posts: 3,240
Default

I am going through the same issue on my brother's 1970. I got a Hays adjustable pivot ball and he is installing it today, I'll let you know how it goes.

__________________
1967 Firechicken, 499", Edl heads, 262/266@0.050" duration and 0.627"/0.643 lift SR cam, 3.90 gear, 28" tire, 3550#. 10.01@134.3 mph with a 1.45 60'. Still WAY under the rollbar rule.
  #14  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:06 AM
STEELCITYFIREBIRD's Avatar
STEELCITYFIREBIRD STEELCITYFIREBIRD is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: "STEELER COUNTRY"
Posts: 2,950
Default

So the fork travels outside the bell, but not inside? Did fork come off the pivot ball or TO bearing not in fork correctly?

  #15  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:05 AM
lakefect lakefect is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: kendall ny
Posts: 235
Default

had the same issue, there are three different length t/o bearings . you need a longer one

  #16  
Old 05-17-2019, 05:22 PM
"QUICK-SILVER" "QUICK-SILVER" is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: LaFayette Georgia
Posts: 5,512
Default HOW FAR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JS77 View Post
Tried taking all the slack out but still doesn’t move clutch disc much. TB has to be away from the fingers because of the weights.
How far away is the bearing from the fingers?

It would take a shorter pivot ball to get the release bearing closer. Then you'ld have to make sure the arm had enough room to travel before it hit the bellhousing.

More pedal travel would have you cramming it against the floorboard to shift.

Depending on distance, a little longer release bearing sounds like a good plan. Just have to shorten the actuating rod to compensate.

That or a throwout arm that's got a curve to the inside so it will clear the weights on the pressure plate.

IMO, Little longer bearing is starting to sound really good to me. That's working with the rest of the parts you have now.

Clay

__________________
All the federales say,they could've had him any day
They only let him slip away, out of kindness...I suppose
Poncho & Lefty
  #17  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:29 PM
gtospieg gtospieg is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,225
Default

Did you compare the old TO bearing to the new TO bearing? Were they the same?....still think a taller TO bearing will help

  #18  
Old 05-18-2019, 08:33 AM
"QUICK-SILVER" "QUICK-SILVER" is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: LaFayette Georgia
Posts: 5,512
Default

When you first tried it out...Was there any damage done from "self clearancing"?

Arm hitting weights couldn't have sound very good. That's when you first start pushing on the pedal. Just starting to take slack out or pedal still close to the top.

Link to pic of DF pressure plate. You can see the weights the arm was hitting before the release bearing touched the fingers.

https://www.centerforce.com/product/...157440-c427467

Longer bearing or shorter ball, depending on just how much clearance is needed.

Clay

  #19  
Old 05-18-2019, 10:33 AM
Holeshot71's Avatar
Holeshot71 Holeshot71 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: MA
Posts: 371
Default

Couple things to check. Make sure the Spring tangs on the fork are inside the groove on the T.O. bearing. Also check the geometry of the fork. With the T.O. Bearing touching the fingers, the flat part of the fork (before it curves) should be coming straight out of the bell housing or angled slightly toward the engine. If it comes out angled toward the transmission you're loosing leverage and probably need a longer pivot ball.

__________________
'71 GTO, 406 CID, 60916, 1.65 HS, '69 #46 Heads 230CFM, 800CFM Q-jet, TH400, 12 Bolt 3.55
'72 Lemans, Lucerne Blue, WU2, T41, L78, M22, G80
  #20  
Old 05-18-2019, 12:48 PM
JS77 JS77 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 25
Default

Thanks for all the help. Talked to few people about Hays flywheel and all agree that it is thinner. Some used adjustable pivot ball or different TB. I bricked on not measuring before hand.
TB is 1/4” away from the fingers. The fork end is more toward rear before TB touches fingers. My thought is to the fulcrum point closer to the engine with adjustable pivot ball. I ordered the ball and TB 1377c to have on hand. Hopefully everything will be here by next weekend.

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:35 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017