[GTOnly70]

Nope.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

In the past few years or so, those rosette rivets have become more readily available.
He needs to buy some and solve the whole fiasco.

As-Is , if i went to see the car as a prospective buyer - i would walk away.
Unless it was super nice AND super cheap.
Frame off's usually aren't super cheap, so he needs to fix that problem.

The driver side rear frame rail is the only hidden VIN on a 66.
Since it was off the frame, that could be fudged - or even no longer distinguishable.

a 66 SS with a small block isn't really a white glove inspection candidate to that depth.
But the tags need to look civilized.

[Jerry H.]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Fuel economy.

A lot of big blocks were removed from Chevelles during the original gas crunch and replaced with small blocks.

Some of those original motors found their way home but I would say it was the exception rather than the rule.

K

Exactly! A ton of small blocks got installed in SS Chevelles during the gas crunches of the 70's, even though they didn't get that much better gas mileage.

I would check the vin on the frame. It should be exactly where the ones were on A body Pontiacs, top of the frame just behind the driver's side rear tire. You'll need a mirror to see it.

If that matched, I'd get the correct rivets and install the vin correctly, where you can read the vin from the outside of the car when you open the door. If they didn't match, hmmm.

[John V.]

Car theft was a big problem in the '60s. It was common for thieves to replace the original VIN tag with one from a similar model pulled from a wrecking yard. Proper rivets were used and these swaps are virtually undetectable today, the VIN tags will always look visually legit as Don Keefe pointed out. Thieves knew what they were doing and how to escape detection.

They didn't mess with the Data Plate (trim tag) since nobody knew how to decipher them anyway.

In the Pontiac hobby such VIN tag swaps are pretty easily detected. I have personally uncovered a handful over the years.

PHS docs will describe the car per the VIN. But the Data Plate will describe a car that is very different. Usually different Paint and/or Trim, often the Time Built will conflict with the VIN, some times the VIN will show one Assembly Plant while the Data Plate will show another and at least in one case, the VIN was for a model year newer than the Data Plate.

Depending on your perspective (whether you already own such a Pontiac or just looking to buy), discovering evidence of a long ago theft can be traumatic. A few such theft cars have made national news when they were discovered long after the theft. A couple have been returned to their original, uninsured, owners decades after the theft.

The Chevy hobby has nothing like PHS but it should still be possible to make some reasonable checks to see if the VIN is reasonable for the Time Built code and to match the VIN Assembly Plant to the Fisher Body Plant on the Data Plate. Date matching of body components, the frame, and glass to the Time Built code can also be useful to remove doubts about the origin of the car.

Since the Chevelle in question seems to have had the VIN tag attached in a completely amateurish way, more than likely there is nothing nefarious about the VIN tag.

Personally, the only way I would consider purchasing the car would be at a huge discount vs. market value. Since '66 Chevelles seem to be about as rare as sand grains on the beach, paying market price for one with a badly attached VIN tag would be dumb.

If I was buying a '66 Chevelle, I'd still be checking date codes and such so simply correcting the rivets would not add much value, just perhaps remove a glaring red flag. But your B-I-L would be wise to do his homework now even if he should have done it pre-purchase. If everything checks out, he can fix the VIN tag with new rivets and have some confidence that the car is what it is represented to be.

[chevymad]

Sounds like you found one of the hidden vin's. Another may be under the heater box flange. As for replacing the BB with a SB, back when I had my 68 SS I used to swap them back and forth all the time. I had a hard time keeping any BB's running, but my 327 would always work.

[Lemans64]

Thanks for all the input, comments are what I well taken. Hoist should be here soon and car will be here till spring so
all give it a once over to find the frame rail vin.
Again thanks for all the input.

[nikrnic]

Red its a big chance. Needs to be inspected by law. Hidden vin on frame etc.

[nikrnic]

Big red

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[lazlo]

As a retired auto theft investigator I can tell you that an altered VIN, or inproper rivets "can" result in your car being impounded by police, and possibly confiscated. If you caught it you can bet your ass the police will.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by lazlo

As a retired auto theft investigator I can tell you that an altered VIN, or inproper rivets "can" result in your car being impounded by police, and possibly confiscated. If you caught it you can bet your ass the police will.

As a former insurance adjuster, head of auto physical damage claims and investigator, I couldn't have said it better.

Seems like every forum has these so called VIN tag removal "experts" who will always say its perfectly okay to tamper, buy or replace VIN tags. They base there "knowledge" on that this has been done on a regular basis. So is robbing a bank.

What does bank robbery and VIN tag removal have in common? They're both felonies.

[RocktimusPryme]

Ive never understood why people always get their panties in a bunch about this. Im all for doing some legwork to make sure the vin doesnt have any theft attached to it, but other than that? Who cares. You should be able to do all this with the DMV involved without all the scare tactics. Was it stolen? No? Get the correct rivets and fix it.

You can rebuild an entire antique aircraft around the serial tag. Ive never understood why you cant do the same with a car. It always just seems to me like there are a whole bunch of antique car owners who just dont want there to be more cars on the road. I mean you can basically build an entire C2 out of a catalog. How many of the cars here have tons of aftermaket sheet metal. But somehow if that vin tag is touched, buttholes pucker. I dont get it.

Unpopular opinion probably, thats fine. I just dont ever understand people advocating severe punishments for non severe issues.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Coincidentally , one of my best friends owned a 66 SS Chevelle factory solid-lifter 4spd car right after high school in early 80's.
In the mid 80's it was stolen from inside his father's Texaco station - while he and his fiance' were vacationing in Myrtle Beach. The day it was stolen, was also his 21st Birthday.

5 years later it was recovered less than 5 miles away.
The person who was harboring the car inside one of his barns for the thief - got pissed with anxiety attacks etc after it still being there for so long ... and called it in.

There were several other dismantled and various stage Chevelles there too.
My friends car was originally a Bronze color with Bronze color interior. Sharp Car

It was now black primer and the interior was spray-can dyed black.
Engine & Tranny removed
VIN and Cowl Tag removed

He recognized and identified his engine & tranny by some certain particulars he recalled when he had rebuilt them. We knew NOTHING about ID codes and ID stamps on engines back then.
Guilford County Sheriff's evidently did not either.

Thief claimed he had sold the engine & tranny - and those in the barn behind my friends car were from a different car.
The sheriff's took the crooks word.

He also claimed the tags were already gone from the car when he took it.

Another insult to injury - and extreme bad judgement - they had dealer license and he always ran dealer tags on the Chevelle. He also left it as open title to avoid property tax on the car (which would have been minimal anyway).
Then above all - he kept the Open Title in the glovebox !!
I had never thought of him as being stupid - but that was stupid.

So Naturally - Title was also Gone
VIN and Cowl Tags Gone
Engine and Tranny Gone
It was a miracle they even let him have the body shell back since he couldn't even provide any VIN proof or proof of ownership history or anything DMV could trace.
He even just slapped inspection stickers on the car when time came due.
No traces.
He couldn't come up with anything showing the VIN .
He bought it from the original owner - but couldn't remember the guys name - and he had moved away.

No one EVER mentioned anything about a VIN being on the frame in those days.

So a Solid Lifter 4spd Chevelle had basically died.
He got a state issued VIN and bonded title - no cowl tag

Fixed her back up fairly nice and kept it a while longer (with a small block)
It took him 3 years to sell the car in the late 90's, for pennies on the dollar.

Terrible story, but felt like sharing it.
Your Brother-In-Law needs to get his shet in proper looking order.
A prospective buyer or even an admirer could recognize what you did and report it.
Then his life and investment goes through he[[
Don't expect your local authorities to be polished professionals in such matters either.
They can bend and twist you any way they see fit once it gets in their hands.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Don't expect your local authorities to be polished professionals in such matters either.
They can bend and twist you any way they see fit once it gets in their hands.

Right. You never know who you are going to get. Its a job. Most of us have them. We all know people who are going to do whatever is easier for them. Easier in this case might be impounding the car and dropping it on someone elses desk.

As others have said, I wouldnt go to the police unless or until I for real suspected the car was stolen. There is a line from The Departed which accurately depicts my feelings on matters like this and law enforcement being involved.

I didnt read the whole thread. Does the vin tag match the frame? If that matches, I would feel not the least bit bad about getting he correct rivets and going on about my day. If they dont I would dig deeper. I turned down a 67 Corvette because the trim tag had the wrong rivets and didnt match the frame. In this case I dont think i was foul play of the theft variety. I think they just took a couple of wrecked cars and made one good one. Which FWIW, I think is fine. Ive known where the car has sat for 40 years. Its just a headache I didnt want to deal with.

[lazlo]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Ive never understood why people always get their panties in a bunch about this.

Unpopular opinion probably, thats fine. I just dont ever understand people advocating severe punishments for non severe issues.

You don't like cops, I get that. Good for you. You have obviously never had a classic car, or any car for that matter, stolen from you and know very little about auto theft.

[lazlo]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

As a former insurance adjuster, head of auto physical damage claims and investigator, I couldn't have said it better.

Seems like every forum has these so called VIN tag removal "experts" who will always say its perfectly okay to tamper, buy or replace VIN tags. They base there "knowledge" on that this has been done on a regular basis. So is robbing a bank.

What does bank robbery and VIN tag removal have in common? They're both felonies.

Yep, hopefully they'll listen to the right experts. Nothing like seeing your freshly restored classic pulling away on a rollback because some expert told you something was okay, when it wasn't. I worked with some damn fine auto theft investigators. Two of my unmarked units were five litre Mustangs with altered VINS.

[lazlo]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

First off, I wouldn't go running off to any government officials.

I would look for all the hidden VINs and quietly run any and all numbers through the National Insurance Crime bureau. It is possible that somewhere down the line, and idiot body shop employee pulled the tag off without regard for the law and reinstalled it incorrectly. To my mind, that is probably the most likely scenario because car thieves are generally smart enough to make it look correct.

If nothing comes back from the VIN search, you're probably okay. If you find multiple VINs or it comes up as stolen, then you have cause to get a lawyer involved.

He has indicated the vin plate has obviously been tampered with. That alone is a violation of law and probable cause to impound the car for theft investigation, if he is stopped by police. I worked with a lot of state troopers and a few local cops who would impound the car based on that, with good reason. We recovered a lot of stolen cars based on les information than that.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by lazlo

Yep, hopefully they'll listen to the right experts. Nothing like seeing your freshly restored classic pulling away on a rollback because some expert told you something was okay, when it wasn't. I worked with some damn fine auto theft investigators. Two of my unmarked units were five litre Mustangs with altered VINS.

They won't. I have preached to the sheeple of the web for about 20 years now. They don't listen to reason unless its their own "reason".

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by lazlo

You don't like cops, I get that. Good for you. You have obviously never had a classic car, or any car for that matter, stolen from you and know very little about auto theft.

Well whenever this comes up, there are always horror stories about certain agencies seeing a rivet missing and taking your car. With no other reason given. That to me sounds a whole lot like.......wait for it......auto theft!

Look in all seriousness without the ball busting its not the cops I have a problem with on this subject. Its the law. As I said I think there should be channels to look at this stuff without the crazy scare tactics. And hell, state to state, there probably is. I think you should be able to easily work with the correct agencies to investigate if the vehicle is stolen, and if not, then put the tag on correctly and its over. Its a rivet for heavens sake.

If no theft occurred, to impound a vehicle, to issue a salvage title that murders the value, over a couple of rivets? If we were talking about literally anything else would that not be absurd?


I currently have a 1943 Willys MB. Military vehicle. Way before the vin tag system. Been in the family since the 50s. Has a clean title. Unfortunately when they titled it however many decades ago they didnt have the internet to know where the correct Willys frame tag was. So they titled it using the engine SN. Now if I want to sell it, it looks wierd because anyone who knows WWII jeeps knows thats not how the SN should look. I would love to fix it, but there is such a stigma over vin numbers and titles Im afraid to even bring it up.

I also have had a car stolen FWIW. My opinion on the matter still is what it is.

[Old Goat Racer]

Roll the dice, buy it. Good luck selling it when your tired of it. The current seller is.

[Mr Anonymous]

Read the link I posted about the law. There are exceptions if you care to read it.