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  #121  
Old 10-19-2022, 07:35 PM
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I think the point of a 4 speed being better and more valuable is because , 1 they were more rare usually in cars to be raced, you had to be GOOD at racing a 4 speed and if you were like many were in 69 era the nose of the car wouldn’t even Bob at all. There were even clutch hydros to try and compete w 4 speeds which made the 55 thru 57 Chevy famous in stock classes . Have to also remember there were no high stall converters yet. (Well except for maybe John Dianna in those days) or even trans brakes.

Guys who could row a 4 speed well could also usually cut a good light,,Because they could leave hard off the line, at 6k to 8 k depending on the class, It took some strength to rip some gears under load, and it was a manly thing to do not just click click click your way through a TH 400. Today it’s all about comfort (wouldn't wanna ruin your manicure) but back then it was badasses fighting it out on the 1:4 mile. Many in Heads up classes.

Yes a th400 is probably better today 1 because we don’t leave at 6 to 8 k anymore, 90 percent of people can’t drive a stick for shot (millennial anti theft device)
And also because there’s high stall tailored converters and reverse manual valve bodies w trans brakes

So the point of the story is buy what you want and the market will decide what’s more valuable it’s called capitalism.

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  #122  
Old 10-19-2022, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by turbo69bird View Post
I think the point of a 4 speed being better and more valuable is because , 1 they were more rare usually in cars to be raced, you had to be GOOD at racing a 4 speed and if you were like many were in 69 era the nose of the car wouldn’t even Bob at all. There were even clutch hydros to try and compete w 4 speeds which made the 55 thru 57 Chevy famous in stock classes . Have to also remember there were no high stall converters yet. (Well except for maybe John Dianna in those days) or even trans brakes.

Guys who could row a 4 speed well could also usually cut a good light,,Because they could leave hard off the line, at 6k to 8 k depending on the class, It took some strength to rip some gears under load, and it was a manly thing to do not just click click click your way through a TH 400. Today it’s all about comfort (wouldn't wanna ruin your manicure) but back then it was badasses fighting it out on the 1:4 mile. Many in Heads up classes.

Yes a th400 is probably better today 1 because we don’t leave at 6 to 8 k anymore, 90 percent of people can’t drive a stick for shot (millennial anti theft device)
And also because there’s high stall tailored converters and reverse manual valve bodies w trans brakes

So the point of the story is buy what you want and the market will decide what’s more valuable it’s called capitalism.
This is probably the most reasonable response I've seen. See, the thing is, Mecum, and other auctions are sending manual equipped cars into the stratosphere where only investors can afford them. Then, if you do happen to acquire one, you are NOT going to use it for all the reasons it's praised for, because now, you are afraid of damaging your investment.

My main quibble is their minimizing automatics as they should inherently be worth less because it's not their preference. The rare part is understandable, but the FUN part is subjective. Again, I want EVERYBODY to know that I am not anti-manual. My problem is with the auctions that are putting these cars in the hand of people who will NEVER drive them at exorbitant prices that will ensure that the average person will never get to experience the hype to which they promote these cars. I grew up in the seventies when these so-called rare cars were roaming the streets, and saw more of them on cinder blocks after races than driving the next day to work. Part of the reason why so many of them drive imports now.


Last edited by pont3; 10-19-2022 at 08:24 PM.
  #123  
Old 10-19-2022, 08:17 PM
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The people drive the market. This stuff only sells for what someone is willing to pay for it so in actuality it's the majority of the buyers preference that is dictating the prices. Not the auction houses fault.

The auction houses are smart and know this, so they make sure they book enough of a certain make and model of car with certain options with enough of the other stuff mixed in for some variety. That's just smart business.

Certain cars and certain options are just more popular than others, and it's always been that way.

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  #124  
Old 10-19-2022, 09:06 PM
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The people drive the market. This stuff only sells for what someone is willing to pay for it so in actuality it's the majority of the buyers preference that is dictating the prices. Not the auction houses fault.

The auction houses are smart and know this, so they make sure they book enough of a certain make and model of car with certain options with enough of the other stuff mixed in for some variety. That's just smart business.

Certain cars and certain options are just more popular than others, and it's always been that way.

You know, you are what I consider one of the most upstanding and genuine members on this site, and I welcome your input. But you seemed to have missed my point, and, I guess, you are reinforcing my point. Yes, they are doing their job, BUT, how is that affecting the average enthusiast who wants to get into the hobby? They have created a market for formerly hated vehicles into a windfall for the rich. Therefore, everyone who owns ANYTHING remotely related thinks they are sitting on a mountain of gold. Those who remember the days that wish to recreate those day are sol.

Again, I am a capitalist and support any entity that legally produces income. My contention is inequality in merits of manual vs automatic. How many of the big spenders that buy these overpriced manuals do you believe are actually going to drive them and experience the thrills? Answer-NONE. But they keep driving up the prices of vehicles so equipped that those who would ACTUALLY use them can't approach them.

But I guess with the way things are going, automatics will eventually get their due.

  #125  
Old 10-19-2022, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by pont3 View Post
You know, you are what I consider one of the most upstanding and genuine members on this site, and I welcome your input. But you seemed to have missed my point, and, I guess, you are reinforcing my point. Yes, they are doing their job, BUT, how is that affecting the average enthusiast who wants to get into the hobby? They have created a market for formerly hated vehicles into a windfall for the rich. Therefore, everyone who owns ANYTHING remotely related thinks they are sitting on a mountain of gold. Those who remember the days that wish to recreate those day are sol.

Again, I am a capitalist and support any entity that legally produces income. My contention is inequality in merits of manual vs automatic. How many of the big spenders that buy these overpriced manuals do you believe are actually going to drive them and experience the thrills? Answer-NONE. But they keep driving up the prices of vehicles so equipped that those who would ACTUALLY use them can't approach them.

But I guess with the way things are going, automatics will eventually get their due.
Thanks for the kind words. You are correct, this has become a hobby that the average enthusiast will have a hard time getting into. It's no longer a cheap hobby. I feel it was going to happen eventually. As things get older, turn to collectable antiques, harder to find, the prices get higher. I see that with everything old that is desirable. I remember the first price hike in the 80's. Remember the 70's? You couldn't give these things away. But slowly ever since, prices have climbed. Now you see plenty of 6 figure cars and still some that grab more. Who would have thought that? I never dreamed they would get that expensive but here we are.

There will always be a certain niche of cars that bring good money.
Who knows, maybe in another 30 years all the millennials will drive up the prices of the automatics

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  #126  
Old 10-19-2022, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by pont3 View Post
You know, you are what I consider one of the most upstanding and genuine members on this site, and I welcome your input. But you seemed to have missed my point, and, I guess, you are reinforcing my point. Yes, they are doing their job, BUT, how is that affecting the average enthusiast who wants to get into the hobby? They have created a market for formerly hated vehicles into a windfall for the rich. Therefore, everyone who owns ANYTHING remotely related thinks they are sitting on a mountain of gold. Those who remember the days that wish to recreate those day are sol.

Again, I am a capitalist and support any entity that legally produces income. My contention is inequality in merits of manual vs automatic. How many of the big spenders that buy these overpriced manuals do you believe are actually going to drive them and experience the thrills? Answer-NONE. But they keep driving up the prices of vehicles so equipped that those who would ACTUALLY use them can't approach them.

But I guess with the way things are going, automatics will eventually get their due.
This is a bad take, the very healthy vintage racing scene shows there are many that not only want to enjoy them, but want to experience them as they were intended, in anger. Sure show cars at Mecum might not, but that's not a manual vs automatic thing, totally depends on the owner. There are plenty of owners that are fully willing to properly experience them. Some wreck them, rebuild them, and wreck them again. And in cars a lot more expensive than would ever show up at Mecum. The ones that truly have the money will drive them, the ones that don't and instead use them as an investment vehicle won't. And are ruining the hobby imo.

This guy that bought an overpriced manual certainly drove it: https://youtu.be/hDLlAeTbLIo. The cars that you see on that track in that video alone are worth more than the total that rolled across the Mecum Kissimmee 2022 auction block. None of those are autos, either.

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  #127  
Old 10-19-2022, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bobzdar View Post
This is a bad take, the very healthy vintage racing scene shows there are many that not only want to enjoy them, but want to experience them as they were intended, in anger. Sure show cars at Mecum might not, but that's not a manual vs automatic thing, totally depends on the owner. There are plenty of owners that are fully willing to properly experience them. Some wreck them, rebuild them, and wreck them again. And in cars a lot more expensive than would ever show up at Mecum. The ones that truly have the money will drive them, the ones that don't and instead use them as an investment vehicle won't. And are ruining the hobby imo.

This guy that bought an overpriced manual certainly drove it: https://youtu.be/hDLlAeTbLIo. The cars that you see on that track in that video alone are worth more than the total that rolled across the Mecum Kissimmee 2022 auction block. None of those are autos, either.
Yes there are many that drive these cars. Arizona is a car meca. We can hit the local cruise every Saturday night and see Hemi Cudas, or even 3 Hemi 4 speed Belvedere convertables parked next to each other. I think 6 or 7 made and to see 3 of them driven on the street to the cruise is pretty cool. LS6 Chevelles, 67-68-69 Z/28 camaros and COPO Camaros, Yenkos, People out here do drive them. You never know what you'll see on a Saturday night.

You've seen prices of 69 Z/28's well into the 6 figures for a good example with pedigree that is certified. We have one, an RS Z/28, and my wife drives it daily. The Z/28 aficionados in the area think we are nuts. Maybe so but at least it's not sitting in a museum. The corvette crowd thought we were nuts when she was daily driving a certified survivor 71 454 vette with 30k original miles. She drove it 2 years every day until she decided she had enough, I sold it with 48K on the clock. I also had a survivor 69 SCJ Mach 1 Mustang with 60k miles that I did drive occasionally. I use my 70 RAIII Formula as my main transportation. Supposedly 1 of 293 made with yes...the dreaded automatic trans But it's not exactly an expensive car, or exceptionally desirable either so.....doesn't bother me.

There are those of us that do drive these things, hell I race the snot out of them too

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Last edited by Formulajones; 10-19-2022 at 10:48 PM.
  #128  
Old 10-20-2022, 11:35 AM
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As far as Mecum bashing goes, we have had several cars, trucks for sale privately that floundered. Took them to Mecum and they all sold for more than we wanted. That is if they will grace you with a good number. We have tried to consign several cars over the last couple years, and they only offered miserable numbers. They don’t give a crap if you come or not.

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  #129  
Old 10-20-2022, 11:53 AM
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I love rowing my own gears, but I have nothing against autos

In fact, my faster cars are all slushboxes with manual valvebodies


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  #130  
Old 10-20-2022, 12:08 PM
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The auction houses have created a market that has driven prices to the moon. I have been to a few Mecum and Barrett auctions with a pocket full of money. I have always walked away empty handed. A good portion of the cars have condition issues... and I'm sure mechanical issues. Most people grossly overpay... especially after you factor in the fee.

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Last edited by 71GP76TA; 10-20-2022 at 12:20 PM.
  #131  
Old 10-20-2022, 12:55 PM
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When you say ‘manual’ do you mean a shifter car?
https://youtu.be/AismFDcA0Kk

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  #132  
Old 10-20-2022, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by will slow gto View Post
When you say ‘manual’ do you mean a shifter car?
https://youtu.be/AismFDcA0Kk
That was funny.

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  #133  
Old 10-20-2022, 02:28 PM
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I learned how to drive on a manual and Dads cars were "3 on the tree" I drove stick cars and trucks for years but finally went to auto's just because that's what I came across. My wrecker is a granny 4 speed, that low 1st gear is really nice to have.
Funny story about a manual when I was a teenager. My Dad would let my brother and I use the car while he was at work. Well, my brother comes home with the car and says the clutch is slipping really bad! Oh crap! Dads gonna be pissed so we bought a clutch kit and swapped it out before we had to go pick him up that evening and some how us dummies managed to get it swapped and picked him up. He started grinning on the way home and I asked what is so funny? He said you guys changed the clutch today didn't you? I meekly said yes...He says yeah it was starting to slip...sob lol

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  #134  
Old 10-20-2022, 02:44 PM
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Although I agree that manuals can be a more fun driving experience on open roads, I don't think it makes any sense to say that a 'real' musclecar has 3 pedals.

At this stage in my life (and taking into my health challenges), a TH400 with a shift kit/manual valve body is the best of all worlds (open roads, daily traffic, drags)...20 y/o me would disagree.

It would be interesting to hear what the youth of today (not necessarily gear heads) would prefer.

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  #135  
Old 10-20-2022, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 98 SNAKE EATER View Post
I love rowing my own gears, but I have nothing against autos

In fact, my faster cars are all slushboxes with manual valvebodies
write on your hand next time to post smaller pictures...

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  #136  
Old 10-20-2022, 03:32 PM
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On the main point of this thread, it's true that an auction situation itself is designed to drive up prices. No doubt about that. But to say that the auctioneers are somehow able to make the manuals more sought after than the autos by their color commentary, I don't think is correct. The bidders decide that. If there were more people out there who wanted autos, those prices would go up too. Mecum wants to sell every car at the highest possible price, that's what they do. Long before I ever even heard of Mecum or any other auction house, 4 spd muscle cars were always more sought after. That's just the way it is. Collectors want them for the value, cool factor or whatever, drivers want them for the experience. No offense to the auto guys but nobody ever looks in the car and says "wow, and it's an auto too!".

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  #137  
Old 10-20-2022, 03:55 PM
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I'm going to start doing that just based on this thread!

  #138  
Old 10-20-2022, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by vertigto View Post
Although I agree that manuals can be a more fun driving experience on open roads, I don't think it makes any sense to say that a 'real' musclecar has 3 pedals.

At this stage in my life (and taking into my health challenges), a TH400 with a shift kit/manual valve body is the best of all worlds (open roads, daily traffic, drags)...20 y/o me would disagree.

It would be interesting to hear what the youth of today (not necessarily gear heads) would prefer.
This just may change in the future. Most of the younger generation don't know how to drive a stick, as they start buying these cars when we take our dirt naps, they may drive the prices the other way. Who knows, it's anyone's guess.

  #139  
Old 10-20-2022, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by will slow gto View Post
When you say ‘manual’ do you mean a shifter car?
https://youtu.be/AismFDcA0Kk
It’s a millennial anti theft device! Lmao good video

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  #140  
Old 10-20-2022, 07:08 PM
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Doesn't make any difference if a car or truck is a manual or automatic. It's the owner's preference, and only his.

For everyday driving I like an automatic. For the classics give me a manual transmission. Now if I was driving a big rig, I'd have to have a 13 or 18 speed trans. Back in the day of driving that POS car hauler and long haul in KWs or Petes out west and back I could shift and you'd think it was an automatic. Especially if I was bobtailing without a trailer. Of the 50 years my dad drove truck he couldn't do it. It's an "art" you have to learn. Besides that, it saves wear and tear on the clutch. Learn the curve and you can do it in a car or pickup.

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