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Old 11-11-2022, 09:16 AM
the old guy the old guy is offline
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Default Borgeson power steering boxes

Anyone installed one of the Borgeson 800 series power steering boxes to solve the on-center wandering and numb feeling of the OEM boxes?
What were the results?
Was it worth the time and cost?
Any install hints or suggestions?
Thank you!
The Old Guy
1973 Fire Am 455 HO Richmond Gear 5-speed
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Old 11-11-2022, 02:02 PM
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I'm revamping my entire front suspension, brakes, and steering system in my 70 TA. I purchased the Borgeson 800130 box for my update. Once it is in I'll be able to provide some feedback. I did a lot of research and I've heard nothing but good things about their boxes, which is why I chose it. It is supposed to provide a more modern/firm driving experience.

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Old 11-11-2022, 02:48 PM
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Very cool and thank you!
I have a quick ratio WS6 box in my '73 Fire AM now. It handles and feels great but has that good ol' GM on-centre numbness and wandering. I'm particularly interested in how the on-centre response and feel is when you get your Borgeson installed.
Thanks again!
The Old Guy

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Old 11-11-2022, 04:22 PM
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I'll let you know in a week or two (hopefully) when I get the car back and give it a drive.

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Old 11-11-2022, 07:00 PM
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I have one and it works great. No issues. Turn One was the go to aftermarket box but they apparently no longer make or sell them for us. This Borgeson is at a nice price point. You won't be disappointed.

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Old 12-23-2022, 08:30 AM
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The Borgeson 800 Series power steering box is now in the car along with new hoses, a Wolff Engineering lower steering column bearing and an Ames Performance rebuilt OEM steering shaft. This upgrade took far longer (3-4 weeks longer) to get done due to multiple defective lower steering column bearings from ebay and from Ames and defective intermediate steering shafts from ebay and from Jeg's. Had planned to be able to road test the Fire Am with the Borgeson box before the snow flied up here in the NH Lakes Region but the delays due to multiple defective parts closed the window of opportunity to do so. Maybe the monsoon rains and 50 degree weather we are getting today will clear the roads of all snow and salt chemicals and we will get to road test the Fire Am and provide a report before Spring of 2023.

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Old 12-23-2022, 08:57 AM
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Please keep us posted once your weather clears and you can finally test things out. Is the steering box made for the first gen birds as well?

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Old 12-23-2022, 09:33 AM
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I just couldn't install the crappy OEM style, or replacement lower column bearings so I made my own out of Delrin.
Used the black one on the right in this photo. Absolutely no slop and it spins very freely.

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Old 12-23-2022, 02:39 PM
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I have installed many aftermarket lower bearings made for a '79 ish steering columns. They fit fine and are over $ 50 bucks now, but I think its better than a bushing.
About this.. " on-center wandering and numb feeling of the OEM boxes?"
Caster has a Lot to do with this and offset upper control arm mounting bar can sure help get more caster.
A "slight" ( 1/4 turn) adjust on the top adjusting screw on steering box will stiffen up the "middle" some, but don't go to much or steering wheel will NOT return
to middle after a corner and on to a straight road.

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Old 12-24-2022, 01:13 PM
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I got one of the Borgeson's from Ames for my car recently. Very nice piece. There is no slop coming off center and it is slightly stiffer than the factory box. No regrets here

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Old 12-25-2022, 09:06 AM
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Good suggestions all, thank you! I have offset upper control arms and have increased the positive caster twice, now pretty much at the limit of adjustability. Even had to slightly trim the rear part of the DS upper control arm for clearance with the steering shaft. The additional positive caster definitely helped but did get the on-centre feel that I was looking for. I may have been spoiled by the precise steering and feel of our well prepared '92 Miata. Very happy with the Wolff Engineering lower shaft bearing upgrade and the Ames Performance rebuilt OEM intermediate steering shaft. Unfortunately may have to wait till Spring of 2023 to be able to road test the Fire Am with these upgrades and the Borgeson 800 series steering box.
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Old 12-25-2022, 06:02 PM
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My TA is in the chassis shop now. I should have some feedback on the Borgeson steering box soon.

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Old 12-28-2022, 02:51 PM
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Holy crap on that bearing! For that kinda' money, I would hope that it would hold more down there than my steering shaft!!

https://www.wolffeng.com/store/p2/M1...e_Bearing.html

J/K, some times you gotta do what you gotta do and bite the bullet. Anyway, I am contemplating the same box but wanted to rule out everything else first as I am currently running a rebuilt "WS6" box that has been a constant disappointment.

I started by reducing the pressure from my Saginaw pump to be within Borgenson's specifications using their shim kit. https://www.borgeson.com/GM-P-S-Pump...-Shim-Kit.html

Then I assumed the rebuilt box would be adjusted correctly but I was wrong and the worm gear pre-load was not even close. I did get a noteworthy improvement in on center response using the adjustment process in this video: https://youtu.be/VRO1ne-SkZo

I have since added tubular arms and have 7 degrees of positive caster. Unfortunately, it is still "loose" around center but once you go off center, things are about right. I was going to replace my intermediate shaft next but before I do that, Is there a way to rule out a bad lower bearing without taking everything apart?

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Last edited by Formula8; 12-28-2022 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 12-28-2022, 06:51 PM
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I doubt the lower steering shaft bearing or the intermediate shaft are responsible for the "loose" around center but once you go off center, things are about right" feeling. Bet it's just the inherent feel of the OEM Saginaw steering box. I had _exactly_ the same issue with the WS6 box in our '73 Fire Am. All brand new front end components and caster at +3.5, that was better but still not even close to the feel of our '92 Miata. Likely I never would have noticed the issue had I never driven the Miata to have a much higher bar to reach for with respect to on-centre steering response and feel. I've owned this Bird since 1975 and raced it for a decade in the 1980s. Unfortunately I cannot road test the Fire Am with the new Borgeson steering box due to the existing glacial condition of our 1/4 mile long driveway.
Now as to the price of the Wolff Engineering lower steering column bearing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone appreciates the beauty of a finely crafted musical instrument, an intricate Swiss watch or a very high quality firearm as a work of art. The Wolff bearing qualifies as such. Consider these two issues we faced:
#1) After many failed attempts to find a lower steering shaft bearing of acceptable quality and 3+ weeks of project delay I discovered the Wolff product
#2) The Wolff Engineering bearing is a work of art. The time and effort expended to engineering and construct a product with this level of attention to detail and craftsmanship is exceedingly rare today. The completeness of the kit, the supplied tools, materials and detailed documentation set a very high example for others manufacturers to follow. This bearing system completely eliminates all of the radial play on the shaft, 100%. The Wolff products is clearly from someone that very cknows and cares about quality at a level that is just no longer seen these days.
Back to the Borgeson steering box, Ames Performance rebuilt OEM shaft and the Wolff bearing, this is not a trivial or inexpensive upgrade, so why not "do it right, do it once" and use the best and highest quality parts available. Time is money when you are playing life in the 4th quarter.
Will post videos on the steering shaft woes and the Wolff Bearing on the Fire Am Registry youtube channel in the next few days,
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXx...PS9uRZCU4nJViA
Photos below show the Wolff bearing Vs the OEM "bearing"
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Behold and decide for yourself.
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Old 12-29-2022, 04:31 PM
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I get it and trust me, I know what you are saying and have a fortune in Crower valve train parts to confirm. Anyway, I guess my reservation is this bushing should not lead a very hard life and see very little load compared to other bearings in your car.

That said, it is a low volume, high quality part and from what I have seen youtube, has some intricate machining involved. When I take the intermediate shaft out of the car next time, I will check for play and if worn, I will gripe a bit about it but will probably go the way you did. If no appreciable play is found, the factory bearing is staying in place.

My though process is to replace all of the possible wear items so I can isolate the box itself being the issue as I have already replaced and adjusted that. At this point I am down to the column bearing and the intermediate shaft. Once those are replaced, if I need a borgenson box (one could argue that is a value priced box and not some work of art), I will replace the box and at least be able to asses the improvement it makes independently.

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Old 12-29-2022, 07:17 PM
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Exactly correct! There is _very little_ load on this bearing, actually a bushing insofar as the OEM piece is concerned. Maybe it's the Engineer or the race car driver-instructor in me that's just not accepting of the slop and play in the OEM and other replacement bushings. I might not have even tried the Wolff unit at $100 if I had not already tried 3 others and introduced a 3+ week delay in completing the Borgeson steering box upgrade project. What I found was none of the OEM-type replacements worked, they all had even worse tolerances and play Vs the 50 year on OEM bushing that was in there. Check out the video on the Fire Am youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXx...PS9uRZCU4nJViA
It was obvious that there was excessive play with the OEM bushing and it needed to be replaced and the replacement kits from Ames and ebay were even worse. The Wolff bearing uses 4x set screws to securely fasten the bearing to the shaft with zero play, a clearly superior engineering solution. The bearing itself is ultra smooth, just no comparison to the bearings supplied with the OEM-style kits. Could very easily justify the extra cost of the Wolff bearing Vs the crappy alternatives considering the cost of the Borgeson box, Ames intermediate steering shaft, new P/S hoses, the labor involved to do it all and the fact that I am keeping the car for another 50 years. The clunk noise was eliminated by replacing the ebay/Jeg's shaft with the Ames rebuilt OEM shaft and the steering feels great, so far as I can test it on jackstands, notably more "solid" feeling Vs the WS6 box that was in there for the past 40 years. Only a real road test will show for sure. With 60 degree weather predicted for next week a real road test might just be possible.
Update to follow...

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