[Alan Reed]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Hi Alan, being an ex-ammeture coin collector I'd be happy to help you with your nickel. The way I see it is you have a few options:

Totally restore the nickel, which would ruin any of its originality, but if done right it'd bring in the dough at a televised auction.

Leave the nickel "as is" but you'd probably leave money on the table if you decide to sell it down the road. You'd eliminate the big dollar potential buyers, because they'd have no idea how to properly restore the nickel.

You could section the date code off the nickel and carefully install it on the 1914 nickel. That way you could install the 1914 date on the original nickel and not be out five cents.

You could section the date code from your nickel and sell the date code to another collector whom may have a mint condition 1913 nickel that's missing it's date code. You'd also have a known original 1913 nickel (missing it's date code) that could be sold to another collector whom may come across a 1913 dated part of a nickel in Switzerland.

You could carefully graft the 1913 date code onto a more common Jefferson nickel. Sell it at auction and claim "that you were told" this is an all original 1913 Nickel by the previous owner and probably sell it for decent money.

Or you could start a thread on every coin collecting Website and lobby for someone to reproduce the 1913 nickel because there is a need for them.

I hope these options help. I'll give you the same offer as I did with the rare carburetors. For half the going rate of a nice original 1913 nickel I will happily sell you a totally authentic looking converted Jefferson nickel that looks identical to the real deal.

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your thoughtful and well articulated reply to my post. Clearly you understood the point I was trying to make, and your reply reinforces my point very nicely.

Alan

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by Mcronk

Best explanation of why auction prices are what they are!

And it was an auction full of people who WANTED to spend money.
Not a website full of guys who HATE to spend money.

From what I understand the block casting for a RA II car should be 9792506 either full casting for early cars or ground and stamped 2506 for later cars, yes? I searched for a correct block code/date code block for my car and found a few. Some had the full 9792506 casting number (usually with a C118 date code). Others had the last 4 digits ground off and stamped 2506. See pics of blocks. Would or could there be any other casting code for a RA II block?

No different codes, but there are different dates

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Every detectable Block Restamp I ever see is an issue to me.
If you can't detect it - well you didn't get a chance to have an issue with it.
Houdini fooled us all I guess.
NEXT

I haven't heard yet that it was a consensually accepted practice in Pontiac circles.
But it definitely goes on , and on, and on again.
You better be DAMN good at it
I would say as far as Pontiacs , high majority are very poorly executed.
It hurts the cars pretty bad so far on ones that have been detectable.
Bad publicity is only good in Hollywood.

Another correct block/engine from another car that is untampered is a great and honorable honest replacement.
SR's can really be fabricated easier than any other.
They don't thrill me very often.
But they have become the path of least resistance / least controversy.
If they have pictures in bare cast iron that looks acceptable I would give them a rubber stamp approval.
Usually they don't have any pictures like that.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Another correct block/engine from another car that is untampered is a great and honorable honest replacement.
SR's can really be fabricated easier than any other.
They don't thrill me very often.
But they have become the path of least resistance / least controversy.
If they have pictures in bare cast iron that looks acceptable I would give them a rubber stamp approval.
Usually they don't have any pictures like that.

Try finding a usable WH that’s not being sat on , it’s not an easy task.

I’ve been watching and inquiring for years because I do consider that another great option.

But I know the as cast C118 is what the car was raced with ,,
Those cast numbers are what they are, an L67 and nothing else . May not have a WH or a vin for my car on it , but it’s a legit L67 and pretty much that part is un- fake-able/ verifiable .

My SR block is traceable to its original spot in Stephens race Stash as something was done to it that is verifiable as Is My RAV pro stock dual quad engine it’s the same way.
So I personally am pretty happy with my blocks/ engines options for my car .
Probably, Not such a bad problem to have which to use in your low milage Real RAIV car your RAII , RAIV or RAV I believe they call that “first world problems.” Lmao

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Alan Reed

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your thoughtful and well articulated reply to my post. Clearly you understood the point I was trying to make, and your reply reinforces my point very nicely.

Alan

You're welcome Alan. Happy to help out a fellow coin enthusiast. Good luck with the restoration or whatever you decide to do with it

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

My car was a dealer owned race car. The second day they swapped out the short block . They being, the DEALER. The car was set up a certain way for racing was even ordered special, and the block was also changed out for the as cast 2506. That was balanced and blue printed. Again this was done by the dealer! Through the years I’d talk to someone (not always someone within the collector car hobby ) and. The first thing they’d say “is it numbers matching.” So I’d tell the story and they’d look at me like the car had no value now. And I’d think F off !
That same person would say a royal bobcat was so valuable it had a dealer installed 428 , or a Comanche was a special edition, or a macho, or a ligebfelter, comp TA , or an SLP, or IDOJ , or some giveaway car. BLA blah blah . .

You have a bit of a unique situation, but not alone. There are original factory racecars out there and they just don't command a lot of money compared to a non-racecar regardless whether they have their original engine or not. My buddy owns an original 72 455 HO Formula car that has lived it's life as a Super Stock car since day one. It's worth a Helluva lot less money (even thought it has less than 500 miles on it) than a compareble 72 Formula HO car that didn't live it's life as a racecar.

Even cars with a lot of recognition don't get a lot of money:

Jim Wangers red 74 TA sold for $6k as a roller when it was put up for sale.

Pete McCarthy put his 67 Ram Air GTO for sale and couldn't find a serious buyer.

In fact the entire Wangers collection brought in less than expected money due to them being modified and missing original engines and numbered parts.

Who knows maybe somewhere down the road someone will find their original engines over in Europe and upgrade them to top buck auction cars.

Remember the guy that spent a crap ton of money purchasing and restoring the missing SD421 LeMans and couldn't sell it for a fraction of what he had into it.... I believe most these high dollar auction cars are purchased as an investment with little to no intention of ever driving them.... Kind of a sad deal, IMO.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

You have a bit of a unique situation, but not alone. There are original factory racecars out there and they just don't command a lot of money compared to a non-racecar regardless whether they have their original engine or not. My buddy owns an original 72 455 HO Formula car that has lived it's life as a Super Stock car since day one. It's worth a Helluva lot less money (even thought it has less than 500 miles on it) than a compareble 72 Formula HO car that didn't live it's life as a racecar.

Even cars with a lot of recognition don't get a lot of money:

Jim Wangers red 74 TA sold for $6k as a roller when it was put up for sale.

Pete McCarthy put his 67 Ram Air GTO for sale and couldn't find a serious buyer.

In fact the entire Wangers collection brought in less than expected money due to them being modified and missing original engines and numbered parts.

Who knows maybe somewhere down the road someone will find their original engines over in Europe and upgrade them to top buck auction cars.

Remember the guy that spent a crap ton of money purchasing and restoring the missing SD421 LeMans and couldn't sell it for a fraction of what he had into it.... I believe most these high dollar auction cars are purchased as an investment with little to no intention of ever driving them.... Kind of a sad deal, IMO.

Well I wouldn‘t say my car would bring less money as a STOCK race car on 6 inch slicks that was raced by a dealer . Jim mino’s car was a race car too My car was raced by a dealer that had a bunch of race cars in 64 68 69 70 71 72 not some Joe blow. But whatever you wanna think . Doesn’t really matter cause it’s not for sale and likely never will be .

Big difference between my car and a super stocker, has never been caged , never been cut up. Raced on a 6 inch slick Still has its full original interior , 15k original miles and tight as a new car the doors shut better than any 69 I’ve ever seen and I’ve had 21 of them. But whatever. Yeah it’s not worth anything . OK YUP.

Funny cause I know of other, not raced 69 RAIV birds that were in a lot worse shape than mine that’s for sure had a TON of money spent on their restorations , but somehow that’s different, because mine was raced . LMAO pathetic.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

Well I wouldn‘t say my car would bring less money as a STOCK race car on 6 inch slicks that was raced by a dealer . Jim mino’s car was a race car too My car was raced by a dealer that had a bunch of race cars in 64 68 69 70 71 72 not some Joe blow. But whatever you wanna think . Doesn’t really matter cause it’s not for sale and likely never will be .

Big difference between my car and a super stocker, has never been caged , never been cut up. Raced on a 6 inch slick Still has its full original interior , 15k original miles and tight as a new car the doors shut better than any 69 I’ve ever seen and I’ve had 21 of them. But whatever. Yeah it’s not worth anything . OK YUP.

Funny cause I know of other, not raced 69 RAIV birds that were in a lot worse shape than mine that’s for sure had a TON of money spent on their restorations , but somehow that’s different, because mine was raced . LMAO pathetic.

I could have had this or a 69 RAIV convertible I had both in my garage I chose this over that, it wasn’t even close !

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

My point was that guys being honorable and showing an SR block or dropping in an equivalent block but w a differnt stamp ,or differnt VIN , shouldn’t get hammered while guys restanping get top dollar .

.

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

Well I wouldn‘t say my car would bring less money as a STOCK race car

I have no idea what your car is worth. In fact I don't even know what car your talking about. You implied previously it was an issue (with other folks) because the original engine has parted ways since day two (because it was a race car) ..... You stated cars without original engines "shouldn't take a hit" ..... so it would be logical to assume (using your words) that a car that was missing it's original engine because it was a racecar would most likely take a hit because it's missing it's original engine... I'm assuming you mean hit as in less money.

Regardless I'm sure it's a great car and glad to see you're enjoying it.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I have no idea what your car is worth. In fact I don't even know what car your talking about. You implied previously it was an issue (with other folks) because the original engine has parted ways since day two (because it was a race car) ..... You stated cars without original engines "shouldn't take a hit" ..... so it would be logical to assume (using your words) that a car that was missing it's original engine because it was a racecar would most likely take a hit because it's missing it's original engine... I'm assuming you mean hit as in less money.

Regardless I'm sure it's a great car and glad to see you're enjoying it.

Well if you meant because of the engine Block that’s not how it read to me., you said it would be worth less because it was a race car (nothing about the engine) like it had an affliction. Lol

Then listed a bunch of race cars one with 500 miles that’s worth nothing. Compared to other rare 455 HOs then Stan antlocers , wangers car . Etc .

I remember when this was the narrative that somehow race cars were lessor cars and it annoys me .

Most times a dealer owned race car was a specially built car . Mines no exception . Tom nell was involved in these Stephens cars as with others . There’s an article in Jan 72 where they talk about that .

Here’s a prime example of a specially built race car for a dealer, the 68 RAII Stephens GTO and my car were the same way. Usually you can tell because they will be radio delete and in 68 heater delete .(69 heater delete wasn’t allowed by government mandate for defrosters) But the special prep goes further than that .

If you were talking solely about the engine block that’s a valid point, I personally don’t think it should be that’s why they made SR blocks to replace a RAIV or what ever equivalent engine with what was considered the same. But it didn’t read that way to me .

Il truly can’t stand when I see a beautiful race car backed w back door factory support, campaigned by a dealer restored STOCK and boring. What a waste!

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

Well if you meant because of the engine Block that’s not how it read to me., you said it would be worth less because it was a race car (nothing about the engine) like it had an affliction. Lol

Then listed a bunch of race cars one with 500 miles that’s worth nothing. Compared to other rare 455 HOs then Stan antlocers , wangers car . Etc .

I remember when this was the narrative that somehow race cars were lessor cars and it annoys me .

Most times a dealer owned race car was a specially built car . Mines no exception . Tom nell was involved in these Stephens cars as with others . There’s an article in Jan 72 where they talk about that .

Here’s a prime example of a specially built race car for a dealer, the 68 RAII Stephens GTO and my car were the same way. Usually you can tell because they will be radio delete and in 68 heater delete .(69 heater delete wasn’t allowed by government mandate for defrosters) But the special prep goes further than that .

If you were talking solely about the engine block that’s a valid point, I personally don’t think it should be that’s why they made SR blocks to replace a RAIV or what ever equivalent engine with what was considered the same. But it didn’t read that way to me .

Il truly can’t stand when I see a beautiful race car backed w back door factory support, campaigned by a dealer restored STOCK and boring. What a waste!

I think you misunderstood worth less (meaning less money) with worthless (not having any value) .... I said generally race cars are worth less (money wise) compared to a similar original car. Then I listed a few examples backing up my statement.

Still seems like you have a great special car.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

$234 Million in sales this year
$217 Million last year

13 cars sold for over $1 Million each

Over 4,000 cars - with 3,180 cars Sold - approx 80%

Record number of bidders AND spectators this year

Consignments from 47 States , I wonder which of the 48 was the oddball ?

ROUGHLY - the Mecum Group made around $30-35 Million from Car Sales
Plus additional from entry fees x4000+ , bidder passes , spectator fees , and whatever else.

[Mcronk]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

$234 Million in sales this year
$217 Million last year

13 cars sold for over $1 Million each

Over 4,000 cars - with 3,180 cars Sold - approx 80%

Record number of bidders AND spectators this year

Consignments from 47 States , I wonder which of the 48 was the oddball ?

ROUGHLY - the Mecum Group made around $30-35 Million from Car Sales
Plus additional from entry fees x4000+ , bidder passes , spectator fees , and whatever else.

I think it would be safe to say they made record money this year too! With the higher car count (entry fees) higher spectator count (entry fee), higher net sales, and what appeard to be the same level of investment (tents/buildings/staff/promotional materials/etc).

They are coming back to Kissimmee in the summer instead of Orlando Convention Center like last year. I will probably attend. "Only" about 1000 cars for that auction.

[turbo69bird]

When I was discussing dealer installed 428s this is what I was thinking of from royal .

Very cool car .